Re: [Oe List ...] Jon Elizondo's thoughts about all kinds of Order stu ff. Part One
Hello to all who read this thread, these threads.Back to our "recent" chats coming from Marsha's thoughts, and now with these new posts... well, suffice to share that I'm all stirred up in many different ways. First of all, I offer myself to any adult OR "child" who wishes to chat on the phone or email or Zoom or in person about any of this. and yes, the OKC (Order Kids Club) is open to have any 2nd generation person join us. We all have unique perspectives. And we support each other a lot, and as best we can. Sometimes we have small or large reunions. If I had more time, I would write all sorts of things out and put them in some kind of order that made sense to me (it might end up being a book) ... but I think I'll just respond with numbered bullet points because there is just So Much Stuff to cover. and reply to. And this may take some time. Second of all, as a matter of authorship perspective, I have spent most of my professional life as an early childhood professional, teacher and advocate. 36th year this year. So I bring that mental framework of child development and human development to this conversation. 1. The whole CULT thing.My definition of Cult has changed and grown over time. Essentially and importantly, any group one belongs to that tells you how to live your life and applies pressure to make you do things a certain way. Therefore, almost all religions, no matter how well meaning, are cults or have cult-like aspects. But how did I get to this place where this is what I think and believe?I was in the order from summer 1968 (5 1/2 years old) until 1980 when I graduated high school. I kept in touch during the next 7 years in various ways, but did not live in the ICA/Order, and for most of those years I internally thought that I would end up being a leader in the ICA. Then summer 1988 I jointed the RLC (Residential Learning Center), the kinder offshoot of the Student House, in Seattle as a volunteer for one year. During that time I realized I wasn't going to be a leader in the ICA. After I left the RLC I was on my own spiritual quest and joined a group of questers. In that group, one of the leaders was a counselor. At one retreat weekend, I said during informal conversation I said that I grew up in a communal Christian group. The counselor said, what group? I said, the Institute of Cultural Affairs. He replied, Oh, that cult. I counseled someone else who grew up in that group. That comment started my journey down the reflective rabbit hole of what is a cult. After some time and reflection I started changing what I told some folks. I would say something like... 1a - At its best we were a healthy tribe/community / at its worst we were a Cult.Each of us has our story. Where we were and when mattered. Who we were with mattered. Our personality and how it interplays with life mattered. Our allies or lack thereof mattered. I might share that we were malnourished... or tell about the mother who wasn't allowed to get on an airplane to go see her deathly ill daughter in the hospital because the mother was a prior and the mission needed her to stay where she was. When adults were taught that the mission was more important than caring for the children, all of that was cult behavior. Period. When adults who worked at Camp New Jerusalem were silenced from reporting on what happened there at the end of the summer session in Chicago, that was abusive cult behavior. 2. In case you didn't figure this out yet, the "crap" that happened in the Order/ICA affected everyone involved, not just the kids. That means you too!abuse - happened to many. Adults and kids. systemic stuff too. neglect - happened to all of us. separation of kids from caring parents - how in the flying crapmobile did parents ever agree to this??? I know some of the answers from my own parents.lack of accountability for mess ups and abusers - yup this happened to all of us. 3. Good intentions and collateral damage.I think it is fine to speak about good intentions... and especially about the intentions that were discussed and created by ICA/Order leaders and members. Did you create what you wanted to create? Did you learn from what happened? use ORID and have a great discussion. very important.ANDTalking about Good Intentions should never be used as an excuse to avoid responding and listening to the consequences of adult/ICA/Order behavior.Many of you signed the apology letter or have the desire in your heart to make amends... so stop making excuses. Just stop. Listen to what is being said by each individual and practice reflective listening. What is being asked for? Listen for that. I think I'll pause for now and send this off. Let's keep talking. Both here and every where else where the discussion is needed.Walk in Beauty,Jon Mark Elizondo425 205 3856jonzondo@juno.com
Hello Jon, Thank you for your words. They resonate deeply. I’ll consider showing my three adult family. Thank you for what I feel is your bravery and courage. For me, you are continuing to raise the healing process which others -like Marsha, Shelley, David, Ken and Herman have initiated in this thread. Thank you. Summer is here now in the Great Southland. With my love, Isobel Isobel Bishop Mob. 0412 129 425
On 13 Dec 2025, at 2:43 pm, jonzondo--- via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hello to all who read this thread, these threads. Back to our "recent" chats coming from Marsha's thoughts, and now with these new posts... well, suffice to share that I'm all stirred up in many different ways.
First of all, I offer myself to any adult OR "child" who wishes to chat on the phone or email or Zoom or in person about any of this. and yes, the OKC (Order Kids Club) is open to have any 2nd generation person join us. We all have unique perspectives. And we support each other a lot, and as best we can. Sometimes we have small or large reunions.
If I had more time, I would write all sorts of things out and put them in some kind of order that made sense to me (it might end up being a book) ... but I think I'll just respond with numbered bullet points because there is just So Much Stuff to cover. and reply to. And this may take some time.
Second of all, as a matter of authorship perspective, I have spent most of my professional life as an early childhood professional, teacher and advocate. 36th year this year. So I bring that mental framework of child development and human development to this conversation.
1. The whole CULT thing. My definition of Cult has changed and grown over time. Essentially and importantly, any group one belongs to that tells you how to live your life and applies pressure to make you do things a certain way. Therefore, almost all religions, no matter how well meaning, are cults or have cult-like aspects. But how did I get to this place where this is what I think and believe? I was in the order from summer 1968 (5 1/2 years old) until 1980 when I graduated high school. I kept in touch during the next 7 years in various ways, but did not live in the ICA/Order, and for most of those years I internally thought that I would end up being a leader in the ICA. Then summer 1988 I jointed the RLC (Residential Learning Center), the kinder offshoot of the Student House, in Seattle as a volunteer for one year. During that time I realized I wasn't going to be a leader in the ICA. After I left the RLC I was on my own spiritual quest and joined a group of questers. In that group, one of the leaders was a counselor. At one retreat weekend, I said during informal conversation I said that I grew up in a communal Christian group. The counselor said, what group? I said, the Institute of Cultural Affairs. He replied, Oh, that cult. I counseled someone else who grew up in that group. That comment started my journey down the reflective rabbit hole of what is a cult. After some time and reflection I started changing what I told some folks. I would say something like... 1a - At its best we were a healthy tribe/community / at its worst we were a Cult. Each of us has our story. Where we were and when mattered. Who we were with mattered. Our personality and how it interplays with life mattered. Our allies or lack thereof mattered. I might share that we were malnourished... or tell about the mother who wasn't allowed to get on an airplane to go see her deathly ill daughter in the hospital because the mother was a prior and the mission needed her to stay where she was.
When adults were taught that the mission was more important than caring for the children, all of that was cult behavior. Period. When adults who worked at Camp New Jerusalem were silenced from reporting on what happened there at the end of the summer session in Chicago, that was abusive cult behavior.
2. In case you didn't figure this out yet, the "crap" that happened in the Order/ICA affected everyone involved, not just the kids. That means you too! abuse - happened to many. Adults and kids. systemic stuff too. neglect - happened to all of us. separation of kids from caring parents - how in the flying crapmobile did parents ever agree to this??? I know some of the answers from my own parents. lack of accountability for mess ups and abusers - yup this happened to all of us.
3. Good intentions and collateral damage. I think it is fine to speak about good intentions... and especially about the intentions that were discussed and created by ICA/Order leaders and members. Did you create what you wanted to create? Did you learn from what happened? use ORID and have a great discussion. very important. AND Talking about Good Intentions should never be used as an excuse to avoid responding and listening to the consequences of adult/ICA/Order behavior. Many of you signed the apology letter or have the desire in your heart to make amends... so stop making excuses. Just stop. Listen to what is being said by each individual and practice reflective listening. What is being asked for? Listen for that.
I think I'll pause for now and send this off. Let's keep talking. Both here and every where else where the discussion is needed. Walk in Beauty, Jon Mark Elizondo 425 205 3856 jonzondo@juno.com
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Dear Jon, Here’s to Ellery & Tony. Servants and saints, gentle and caring. k
On Dec 13, 2025, at 4:51 PM, Isobel and Jim via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hello Jon, Thank you for your words. They resonate deeply. I’ll consider showing my three adult family. Thank you for what I feel is your bravery and courage. For me, you are continuing to raise the healing process which others -like Marsha, Shelley, David, Ken and Herman have initiated in this thread. Thank you. Summer is here now in the Great Southland. With my love, Isobel
Isobel Bishop Mob. 0412 129 425
On 13 Dec 2025, at 2:43 pm, jonzondo--- via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hello to all who read this thread, these threads. Back to our "recent" chats coming from Marsha's thoughts, and now with these new posts... well, suffice to share that I'm all stirred up in many different ways.
First of all, I offer myself to any adult OR "child" who wishes to chat on the phone or email or Zoom or in person about any of this. and yes, the OKC (Order Kids Club) is open to have any 2nd generation person join us. We all have unique perspectives. And we support each other a lot, and as best we can. Sometimes we have small or large reunions.
If I had more time, I would write all sorts of things out and put them in some kind of order that made sense to me (it might end up being a book) ... but I think I'll just respond with numbered bullet points because there is just So Much Stuff to cover. and reply to. And this may take some time.
Second of all, as a matter of authorship perspective, I have spent most of my professional life as an early childhood professional, teacher and advocate. 36th year this year. So I bring that mental framework of child development and human development to this conversation.
1. The whole CULT thing. My definition of Cult has changed and grown over time. Essentially and importantly, any group one belongs to that tells you how to live your life and applies pressure to make you do things a certain way. Therefore, almost all religions, no matter how well meaning, are cults or have cult-like aspects. But how did I get to this place where this is what I think and believe? I was in the order from summer 1968 (5 1/2 years old) until 1980 when I graduated high school. I kept in touch during the next 7 years in various ways, but did not live in the ICA/Order, and for most of those years I internally thought that I would end up being a leader in the ICA. Then summer 1988 I jointed the RLC (Residential Learning Center), the kinder offshoot of the Student House, in Seattle as a volunteer for one year. During that time I realized I wasn't going to be a leader in the ICA. After I left the RLC I was on my own spiritual quest and joined a group of questers. In that group, one of the leaders was a counselor. At one retreat weekend, I said during informal conversation I said that I grew up in a communal Christian group. The counselor said, what group? I said, the Institute of Cultural Affairs. He replied, Oh, that cult. I counseled someone else who grew up in that group. That comment started my journey down the reflective rabbit hole of what is a cult. After some time and reflection I started changing what I told some folks. I would say something like... 1a - At its best we were a healthy tribe/community / at its worst we were a Cult. Each of us has our story. Where we were and when mattered. Who we were with mattered. Our personality and how it interplays with life mattered. Our allies or lack thereof mattered. I might share that we were malnourished... or tell about the mother who wasn't allowed to get on an airplane to go see her deathly ill daughter in the hospital because the mother was a prior and the mission needed her to stay where she was.
When adults were taught that the mission was more important than caring for the children, all of that was cult behavior. Period. When adults who worked at Camp New Jerusalem were silenced from reporting on what happened there at the end of the summer session in Chicago, that was abusive cult behavior.
2. In case you didn't figure this out yet, the "crap" that happened in the Order/ICA affected everyone involved, not just the kids. That means you too! abuse - happened to many. Adults and kids. systemic stuff too. neglect - happened to all of us. separation of kids from caring parents - how in the flying crapmobile did parents ever agree to this??? I know some of the answers from my own parents. lack of accountability for mess ups and abusers - yup this happened to all of us.
3. Good intentions and collateral damage. I think it is fine to speak about good intentions... and especially about the intentions that were discussed and created by ICA/Order leaders and members. Did you create what you wanted to create? Did you learn from what happened? use ORID and have a great discussion. very important. AND Talking about Good Intentions should never be used as an excuse to avoid responding and listening to the consequences of adult/ICA/Order behavior. Many of you signed the apology letter or have the desire in your heart to make amends... so stop making excuses. Just stop. Listen to what is being said by each individual and practice reflective listening. What is being asked for? Listen for that.
I think I'll pause for now and send this off. Let's keep talking. Both here and every where else where the discussion is needed. Walk in Beauty, Jon Mark Elizondo 425 205 3856 jonzondo@juno.com
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
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participants (3)
-
Isobel and Jim -
jonzondo＠juno.com -
Ken Fisher