Jim, Thanks for acquiring and reading IRON BOY. I will be interested in your impressions and thoughts about how well or poorly I achieved my stated goals for the book. Regarding your excellent question about the songs, I collected a handful or Order, EI, and ICA songbooks over the years. This coding system comes from this 3-ring binder gem. Sent from my iPad David Marshall www.marshallbooks.net

On Jul 4, 2025, at 9:10 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

I dont recognize the song collection you reference, David, (or anyone) with the lettered categories and numbered songs. Is it in the archives somewhere? (Just got to part two …) Jim Wiegel “…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“.

The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver

...

...

On Jul 3, 2025, at 9:54 PM, Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

 <July 1.docx> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

---

OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

Amazing- great song and voice. Dick On Tue, Aug 19, 2025 at 5:52 PM David Marshall via OE < oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Here’s my first video song, saying goodbye to Dad, This Substack post pertains both to the thread started by Jim Wiegel about the Order songs at the beginning of each chapter of “Iron Boy,” and the recent GWM thread started by Ben Ball, so I’m adding it to both. Sorry if I’m breaking the rules.

https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/iron-boy-to-iron-man-farewell-love?r=23ftwm&utm_medium=ios

Stay tuned for some more recorded song clips after Dad passes.

Grace & Peace & Love

David Marshall

Sent from my iPhone David Marshall www.marshallbooks.net

On Jul 4, 2025, at 3:32 PM, David Marshall < davidpaulmarshall1956@gmail.com> wrote:

Jim,

Thanks for acquiring and reading IRON BOY. I will be interested in your impressions and thoughts about how well or poorly I achieved my stated goals for the book.

Regarding your excellent question about the songs, I collected a handful or Order, EI, and ICA songbooks over the years. This coding system comes from this 3-ring binder gem.

<image.png>

<image.png>

<image.png>

Sent from my iPad David Marshall www.marshallbooks.net

On Jul 4, 2025, at 9:10 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

I dont recognize the song collection you reference, David, (or anyone) with the lettered categories and numbered songs. Is it in the archives somewhere? (Just got to part two …) Jim Wiegel

“…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“.

The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver

On Jul 3, 2025, at 9:54 PM, Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

 <July 1.docx> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

-- Richard H. T. Alton ICA Global Fund United Methodist Creation Care The Last Chapter T: 773.344.7172 richard.alton@gmail.com Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2 Won't you be my neighbor?

I recognize that songbook. It has a blue cover. We have a copy of it and Louise inkinded the paper for it. I think it contains every song we ever wrote at the time in 1978. Grace and Peace, Jack Ballard From: OE <oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> On Behalf Of David Marshall via OE Sent: Friday, July 4, 2025 6:44 PM To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: David Marshall <davidpaulmarshall1956@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Ongoing Reflections Jim - Not wanting to choke the listserv with images, I’m sending these six photos in two batches. Here is the final TOC, a section cover page, and an example of the song page layouts with the Other World symbols on them, of one of my Order artifact songbooks. David Sent from my iPad David Marshall www.marshallbooks.net <http://www.marshallbooks.net> On Jul 4, 2025, at 9:10 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote: I dont recognize the song collection you reference, David, (or anyone) with the lettered categories and numbered songs. Is it in the archives somewhere? (Just got to part two …) Jim Wiegel “…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“. The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver On Jul 3, 2025, at 9:54 PM, Mari Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> > wrote:  <July 1.docx> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

Marsha, I am going to be very presumptive here and offer a reponse on behalf of the many good folks in this community. The deafening silence you hear is not people avoiding the topic you raised; but people who have been stunned, shamed, and humiliated into silence, not knowing what the proper response is. The proper response includes NO defenses, or justification. We are all internalizing the intense pain you must have felt. How alone, how powerless, you must have experienced yourself. On behalf of all of us, I offer an abject apology that we weren't present to that pain at the time. I was so moved by your affirmation of the other gifts of the Order, and your colleagues, in the face of that pain. Thank you for offering that; it provides a glimpse into the healing that has taken place. I hope that you had the opportunity and experience of confronting this - and resolving it - with your parents. As a parent, I can tell you that the pain of knowing your child suffered something so devastating is only matched by the pain of knowing we failed you in that moment. All the wonderful Order teachings and platitudes about Grace fall away in the face of our children's pain at our own hands. We appreciate your courage as we wrestle with our own justification. Thank you for sharing; and forgive our inadequate responses. Cheryl Hood On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 4:09 PM Marsha Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Marilyn,

I so appreciate your thoughtful reply. I'm aware of the silence on the OE listserv since I wrote several days ago. A heaviness has come over me, too.

Thank you for your deep, honest sharing. I appreciate hearing the intensely compelling things going on in the world and the church that drew you and Joe to the Order. That was a time of awakening and consciousness-raising -- civil rights, war protest, etc. I can see how the OE and EI were a vehicle for living out that new consciousness.

It sounds like a brave move for you, Judy, and Mimi to make your case to JWM to take your children with you to India. I'm glad the three of you prevailed. I have no doubt that it mattered to you and your kids.

Thank you again for being so open and honest in your sharing.

Marsha

On Thursday, July 3, 2025 at 08:53:49 PM PDT, Mari Crocker < maricrocker@gmail.com> wrote:

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

Marsha, I admire your strength and courage as there is pain around the whole issue of how children & youth were viewed and treated in the Order. I also have been meaning to respond and hadn’t really known how, hence my relative silence. I applaud your writing, it is a thoughtful account that is both highly personal and yet speaks for many more than yourself. You have treated Order members (and yourself) with respect and care. It is highly uncomfortable to talk what ensued within the Order, as we haven’t done as much self analysis as we could on our Order life, our care structures, particularly the care of children/youth. This is not to say people haven’t tried but we always tried to maintain such a strong public face that we glossed over or even didn’t recognize some of our inner flaws & our neglected inner work. Much of the EG curriculum was quite wonderful, yet we were too hyper focused on the exterior mission and thought everyone had to be in structures serving that mission. I would add that we started to deepen the conversation at Vail in 2000 and many youth and families continued to talking/trying to reconcile what happened- yet not as much that I’m aware on this list serve or as part of our overall reflections as the Order.  I will be in Chicago to help with the Archives 7/12-7/26. We’re working a lot in the basement since files & records continue to be vulnerable to damp & mildew, even occasional pipes bursting. We still have some duplications in our files in the basement, though most have been worked on diligently to cull and preserve what is most essential.  (Many files were sent without the Order houses or individuals go through and culling duplicates or extraneous documents. It’s a big job ongoing job to continue to get pertinent docs on the Archives website. I’m trying to think how to incorporate more internal reflections like yours on the website. Youth were greatly affected, as were individuals & families who didn’t always “fit in well with the structures & mission”. I know youth kept up a network with each other over the past 25 years and some have expressed a great deal of pain. Also, early on, folk couldn’t embrace their identity as a gay person, (had to subsume, hide or ignore it). Separations or divorce was discouraged and people originally had to leave. People also left because they felt different or their voices weren’t fully heard in the midst of corporateness.  Some were more introverted or needed more personal time than structures would allow. Some had mental health issues or deep depression that couldn’t be explained away as just “dark night of the soul”.  I’m thinking out loud here as I type, but wanted to respond to Marsha and this thread before too much time passes. With respect and care, Debra HarrisHouston Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, July 7, 2025, 3:19 PM, Geri Tolman via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I am so thankful that David and Marsha have shared their wisdom with our community and have once again prompted conversations, reflections and (dare I say it?) healing to all of our families.  Their writings are such a gift to those of us who still have the luxury of time to spend with our “kids”. Thank you also to Cheryl for your reply which echos my sentiments.  May we all heal and be strong enough to continue caring.  Respectfully,Geri Tolman Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2025, at 1:43 PM, Dianne Greenwald via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:  Much gratitude from me for all of your participation in holding ALL of our history.  My daughter suffered many years from abuse that occurred at a very young age.  And neglect from parents who did love her very much but were not present and unable to meet the emotional psychological distress she struggled with.  She was an adult when we finally accessed what happened Years later-Recently through Buddhist practices we have come to care for each other in deep new honest ways which are building a beautiful relationship still requiring much staying present and seeing through.    I’m grateful for all of the journey.   She’s visiting this week.  This morning I realized-acknowledged to her I am learning to love the violent protector of your little girl so that it may be free to let you go.You have the little girl now safely in your own love.   AND…Somehow at the end of this journey the work of learning to create a space where we walk safely together IS on behalf of all.  Again thank you all for holding this space together.Dianne Greenwald   Sent from my iPhone On Jul 7, 2025, at 2:42 AM, Sunny Walker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:  Thank you for expressing my own sense. Sunny On Sun, Jul 6, 2025, 9:18 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Marsha, I am going to be very presumptive here and offer a reponse on behalf of the many good folks in this community.  The deafening silence you hear is not people avoiding the topic you raised; but people who have been stunned, shamed, and humiliated into silence, not knowing what the proper response is. The proper response includes NO defenses, or justification. We are all internalizing the intense pain you must have felt. How alone, how powerless, you must have experienced yourself. On behalf of all of us, I offer an abject apology that we weren't present to that pain at the time. I was so moved by your affirmation of the other gifts of the Order, and your colleagues, in the face of that pain. Thank you for offering that; it provides a glimpse into the healing that has taken place. I hope that you had the opportunity and experience of confronting this - and resolving it - with your parents. As a parent, I can tell you that the pain of knowing your child suffered something so devastating is only matched by the pain of knowing we failed you in that moment. All the wonderful Order teachings and platitudes about Grace fall away in the face of our children's pain at our own hands. We appreciate your courage as we wrestle with our own justification. Thank you for sharing; and forgive our inadequate responses. Cheryl Hood On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 4:09 PM Marsha Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Marilyn, I so appreciate your thoughtful reply. I'm aware of the silence on the OE listserv since I wrote several days ago. A heaviness has come over me, too.  Thank you for your deep, honest sharing. I appreciate hearing the intensely compelling things going on in the world and the church that drew you and Joe to the Order. That was a time of awakening and consciousness-raising -- civil rights, war protest, etc. I can see how the OE and EI were a vehicle for living out that new consciousness.  It sounds like a brave move for you, Judy, and Mimi to make your case to JWM to take your children with you to India. I'm glad the three of you prevailed. I have no doubt that it mattered to you and your kids.  Thank you again for being so open and honest in your sharing. Marsha On Thursday, July 3, 2025 at 08:53:49 PM PDT, Mari Crocker <maricrocker@gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

Here is the ICA Global Archives page, found in the Spirit Movement Collection on RSI that has both “RSI in a Nutshell” and Tom Bergdall’s paper: https://icaglobalarchives.org/collections/spiritmovement/rs-i-plc/.

On Jul 9, 2025, at 8:42 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Earlier in this thread, David sent round a summary of RS-1 and mentioned the middle part of Iron Boy transcribes his experience taking the course. Somene mentioned RS-1 in a Nutshell (often attributed to Joe Pierce) shortly thereafter.

In the middle of the night it came up for me that Tom Bergdall (Terry's brother) wrote a summary of RS-1 but I cannot find it. Anyone recall or have that?

I had coffee and a conversation yesterday with son Dhondiram especially about experiences in Kenya, Brussels, the Rite of Passage Journey and the RLC. It was interrupted by a call from his neighbor, Subash, that water was flowing out of Dhondi's yard into his requiring a facetime call to locate the problem and deal with it. Son Shanker is down with COVID at the moment and daughter Jenny is in Alaska visiting their first grand child. More later.

Sending love and gratitude to all the Earth mothers and Earth daughters . . .

Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking

...

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

I don't often comment here, but I did review RS-1 in a Nutshell.My very precise memory is that "the big squeeze" image from teaching Bultmann starts with using the upward arrows to represent how we are thrust into life by a mysterious power, given care(s), longing (for the true and the beautiful, or just indefinite longing), the thirst for knowledge, and the desire to love (and to be loved, btw), thoughts and strength to work (toward solutions), and our struggle between duty and self-assertion.And the downward arrows to represent how each of those human propensities is limited or negated by the circumstances of life that we are given by that same mysterious power, including the torment of our guilt.So, was that the classic version of how to teach Bultmann, or did I somehow get it flat wrong for all these years (including teaching in the Academy)?And just who decided to flip that image upside down when they squeezed RS-1 Lite into a nutshell for facilitators? I may have some very vague wisps of memory of how this may have been discussed many years ago.Or possibly I'm just getting too old to worry about it now.Marshall Jones On Wednesday, July 9, 2025 at 09:05:46 PM PDT, Nancy Trask via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Dear ones,Here’s my memory of the title of Larry’s contribution of the very brief RS-1 story, “The 44-Second RS-1,” and I thought it was said by JWM.  It clearly saved a lot of time—just 44 seconds rather than 44 hours!   I had it posted at my desk for years at my library job, and it usually made me grin, or sometimes grimace. “RS-1 in a Nutshell” is as Karen shared from the Archives.Best regards,Nancy Trask On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 9:25 AM Karen Snyder Troxel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Here is the ICA Global Archives page, found in the Spirit Movement Collection on RSI that has both “RSI in a Nutshell” and Tom Bergdall’s paper:  https://icaglobalarchives.org/collections/spiritmovement/rs-i-plc/.   On Jul 9, 2025, at 8:42 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Earlier in this thread, David sent round a summary of RS-1 and mentioned the middle part of Iron Boy transcribes his experience taking the course.  Somene mentioned RS-1 in a Nutshell (often attributed to Joe Pierce) shortly thereafter. In the middle of the night it came up for me that Tom Bergdall (Terry's brother) wrote a summary of RS-1 but I cannot find it.  Anyone recall or have that? I had coffee and a conversation yesterday with son Dhondiram especially about experiences in Kenya, Brussels, the Rite of Passage Journey and the RLC.  It was interrupted by a call from his neighbor, Subash, that water was flowing out of Dhondi's yard into his requiring a facetime call to locate the problem and deal with it.  Son Shanker is down with COVID at the moment and daughter Jenny is in Alaska visiting their first grand child.  More later. Sending love and gratitude to all the Earth mothers and Earth daughters . . . Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “       Stephen Hawking _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

No, Dear W.J., me thinks you remember it correctly. The “packaging” of what was originally “unprocessed”, save through grounded, raw life experience, resulted in a skimmed milk, albeit easily scale-able, replica-able and sale-able product. Mari

On Jul 12, 2025, at 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

I don't often comment here, but I did review RS-1 in a Nutshell. My very precise memory is that "the big squeeze" image from teaching Bultmann starts with using the upward arrows to represent how we are thrust into life by a mysterious power, given care(s), longing (for the true and the beautiful, or just indefinite longing), the thirst for knowledge, and the desire to love (and to be loved, btw), thoughts and strength to work (toward solutions), and our struggle between duty and self-assertion. And the downward arrows to represent how each of those human propensities is limited or negated by the circumstances of life that we are given by that same mysterious power, including the torment of our guilt. So, was that the classic version of how to teach Bultmann, or did I somehow get it flat wrong for all these years (including teaching in the Academy)? And just who decided to flip that image upside down when they squeezed RS-1 Lite into a nutshell for facilitators? I may have some very vague wisps of memory of how this may have been discussed many years ago. Or possibly I'm just getting too old to worry about it now. Marshall Jones

On Wednesday, July 9, 2025 at 09:05:46 PM PDT, Nancy Trask via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Dear ones, Here’s my memory of the title of Larry’s contribution of the very brief RS-1 story, “The 44-Second RS-1,” and I thought it was said by JWM. It clearly saved a lot of time—just 44 seconds rather than 44 hours! I had it posted at my desk for years at my library job, and it usually made me grin, or sometimes grimace.

“RS-1 in a Nutshell” is as Karen shared from the Archives. Best regards, Nancy Trask

On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 9:25 AM Karen Snyder Troxel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Here is the ICA Global Archives page, found in the Spirit Movement Collection on RSI that has both “RSI in a Nutshell” and Tom Bergdall’s paper: https://icaglobalarchives.org/collections/spiritmovement/rs-i-plc/.

...

On Jul 9, 2025, at 8:42 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:

Earlier in this thread, David sent round a summary of RS-1 and mentioned the middle part of Iron Boy transcribes his experience taking the course. Somene mentioned RS-1 in a Nutshell (often attributed to Joe Pierce) shortly thereafter.

In the middle of the night it came up for me that Tom Bergdall (Terry's brother) wrote a summary of RS-1 but I cannot find it. Anyone recall or have that?

I had coffee and a conversation yesterday with son Dhondiram especially about experiences in Kenya, Brussels, the Rite of Passage Journey and the RLC. It was interrupted by a call from his neighbor, Subash, that water was flowing out of Dhondi's yard into his requiring a facetime call to locate the problem and deal with it. Son Shanker is down with COVID at the moment and daughter Jenny is in Alaska visiting their first grand child. More later.

Sending love and gratitude to all the Earth mothers and Earth daughters . . .

Jim Wiegel “We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ Stephen Hawking

...

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net

Awesome !!!!!!!!

On Jul 13, 2025, at 8:20 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Neither White boards and markers nor projection screens and computers have been able to reduplicate that drama.

Perhaps the cows who came up with the skim milk recipe never got a taste of the heavy cream version. I'm sure they thought they had gotten it right and were doing the right thing! But as they looked longingly over the assignment fence, they could see in the distance that the grass was clearly greener in the Academy.Or whatever.Let us not forget that, as I recall it, the Friday night conversation/lecture/seminar in RS-1 was about "The Question of God." In the nutshell version, the question was, "What would a truck driver call this reality?"Well, if the truck driver happened to be Frank Hilliard, he might use some very frank and colorful language to name it!Such is the power of pedagogy.Marshall Jones On Sunday, July 13, 2025 at 05:35:27 PM PDT, Ken Fisher via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Awesome !!!!!!!! On Jul 13, 2025, at 8:20 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Neither White boards and markers nor projection screens and computers have been able to reduplicate that drama. _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net