Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] A photocopy of Joseph Mathews' graduate thesis
Herman Greene is connected into that network Cobb, process philosophy, etc. I am currently enrolled in a course he is leading on living in the Anthropocene era. Jim Wiegel “…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“. The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver
On Oct 6, 2022, at 11:26 PM, rev.bud@mac.com wrote:
Might I suggest that one possible place for JWM’s thesis be the website Religion Online. If I understand R O’s current status, in has been put in the hands of Clarmont School of Theology, and possibly with John Cobb. If any of you out there are in touch with John Cobb, would you say so. I think Cobb would be interested in this attempt to resurrect JWM’s thesis. As well as being the major voice for the Whiteheadian Process theology, Cobb is in the Wesleyan tradition. I think he could be intrigued by an existentialist slant on Wesley. Cobb at 93 would be a contemporary of Matthews
https://www.religion-online.org/ Religion Online began with American teachers who were teaching in the ’third world’ and finding text books out of the price range of their students. Putting the thesis here would also make it available to persons world-wide who have been influenced by Matthews and his EI/ICA work.
See also Thomas Oord: https://www.religion-online.org/article/types-of-wesleyan-philosophy-the-gen...
Bud Tillinghast One who visited CFLC in Easter ’61 only to find the crew I was looking for was just off to Chicago.
On 7 Oct 2022, at 00:22, W. J. via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Friends, I actually read most of chapter 1 of JWM's dissertation, which is a long haul. (OK, so I speed-read the last part!) So here are my thoughts and questions. First, does anybody know what happened to the actual boxed hard copy I saw in the Archives office? Second, does anybody know whether Wesley Theological Seminary has a hard copy in their JWM archive collection? Third, can anyone confirm, correct, or elaborate on the story I heard from Marge (I think) about how JWM refused to 'tweak' his dissertation, and thus never got his Ph.D. degree? Or tell us anything else they know about the origin and/or transmission of the manuscript? I would love to hear about this from LiDonna, Sarah B., Fishel, Lingo, Gilles, Walters, Gene, Beret, Aimee, or any others still alive whose memory goes back as far as CFLC and the early days of EI. And anyone else who may have heard this story from Marge. Fourth: My own somewhat vague memory is that JWM wrote this at Yale for H. Richard Niebuhr. Is that accurate? (see The Founders – ICA Social Research Center) Fifth, how can we date the completion/rejection/abandonment of JWM's dissertation? I would guess that it was while he was teaching at Colgate Rochester as an ABD faculty member. Is there a date on the ms. or some kind of documentation? Sixth, is there a copyright notice, and if so, who owns the copyright? Seventh, who added the running page header that says "Chapter one mathews"? It just doesn't strike me as being part of the original typescript. Now, for the icing on this cake! I for one would vote to do all we can to reconstruct and correct the minutae of JWM's dissertation and produce a .pdf that could be widely available. Perhaps as a freely available document on a theological dissertation website. Or perhaps we could reformat the text with added section subheads (you know, they did that to English translations of the Bible! those subheads are not in the original Greek and Hebrew!) and even add a contemporary Forward. Or even publish it on Amazon! At age 82 I always contemplate the option of Doing Nothing! So we could just do nothing more with the JWM dissertation. Plus, at 82 I'm aware of the mantra, 'Just do it now!' Or maybe later will be too late! Because, starting many years ago, it was not considered exactly missionally relevant. Even by JWM. He just moved on. And perhaps he considered all that effort to complete his Ph.D. a misfire. Or a most unfortunate fire! Or whatever. But I encourage us to think in terms of this (admittedly bad) analogy: imagine that Picasso doodled a face on a napkin. It's still a Picasso! (Please let me know if you have any of his napkins.) So here's what I got from reading (more or less) chapter 1. We may not actually care very much about how John Wesley used his classical 18th century education and intelligence to understand and describe the human condition in relation to his grasp of the nature of the physical universe and his personal relationship with Ultimate Reality. But Joe Mathews did. So if you read his dissertation, what you get is Joe's 20th century theological lens applied to understand Wesley's theological world. I would venture to add that, IMHO, Mathews has added a significant voice or POV to Wesley scholarship, getting inside Wesley's construction of intimate human reality by placing Wesley's words in the context of his functioning intellectual universe of Western scholarship (from Hume to Descartes to Aquinas, etc.). Mathews is charting Wesley's understanding of epistemology (including his perception of divine activity in human experience) and his theological anthropology. It's Mathews' reading of Wesley's theological formulation of his personal process of his deepening, transformative experience of 'sanctification'. And, of course, it sounds more like Mathews' existentialist theological lingo than Wesley's 18th century theological formulations. For example, "the naked givenness of the impression" just doesn't sound like it was plucked from a Wesley sermon! In a nutshell, Mathews is 'decoding' Wesley for twentieth century scholarly readers. (Who else reads Wesley's sermons? I ask. Raise your hands, please! I thought so.) Maybe that's why it didn't pass muster with HRNiebuhr! Anyway, enough blah-blah-blah. I vote for resurrecting this hidden/undiscovered gem for the few remaining authentic Wesley scholars to chew on. And/or spit up. Any others of us are welcome to join in the fun by charting it. Marshall
Links in the message (1)
The Founders – ICA Social Research Center On Tuesday, October 4, 2022, 09:13:01 AM EDT, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Has anyone looked at Slicker's master's thesis? He mentioned it as his formulation of RS-1 when we visited him in 2007 23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1
23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1
The thought has crossed my mind . . . I wonder whether Joe's approach -- Ecumenical Institute approach -- more on the ethical side, almost coming at theology as an anthropological study -- remember the quote to Msgr. Egan -- we tried to show the church it was about humanness . . . sort of put him outside "real" theology in an academic sense -- or maybe it was just having to type it over again??
Jim Wiegel
The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plain sailing. John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 10:04:14 AM MST, David Dunn via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi Marshall, Karen and colleagues.
I’ve done a quick comparison of the four documents in the Archive (https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/) and the photocopy of JWM’s thesis that I have. The four documents in the Archive are the four chapters of JWM's thesis. A quick survey suggests that the only parts of the thesis missing from the Archive copy are the Title page, the comprehensive Table of Contents, the Introduction to the thesis and a few footnotes.
This means that we’ll have the entire thesis with the addition of scans of the Table of Contents (2 pages), the Introduction (4 pages) and the cover.
A few good copy editor souls need to compare the PDF against the photocopy to correct the numbering of a few of the footnotes and other typos that might appear—easy corrections in the PDF
I’ve forgotten whose photocopy I copied (my copy is at least a second generation copy), but that means that there is likely at least one 2nd generation copy in someone else’s hands.
In any case, we’re close to having a pristine PDF of the entire thesis.
This was a pleasing experience of network intelligence.
David
On Oct 2, 2022, Karen Snyder wrote: In light of it being about John Wesley, it either is JWM’s doctoral thesis or something he wrote related to it. You can see what we have presently in the Archives under Periodicals here related to his doctoral thesis: https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/.
If it is different, than it should be added here as well. Are you able to scan it? If not, send it to Chicago, and we will scan it. We do scanning four days a week so it would be done immediately. Once scanned and added to the Periodicals, it is available for anyone to read it who wishes to.
On Oct 2, 2022, Marshall Jones replied: So David's precious xerox is probably copied from this original. I think the typescript is also available in a digital scan on-line.
—
<DMD email sig photo small-Nov2012.jpg>
"Mystery, possibility, and the power to choose"
David Dunn 740 S Alton Way 9B Denver, CO 80247 720-314-5991 dmdunn1@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
<DMD email sig photo small-Nov2012.jpg>_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dear O.E. Folks: Just a note about JWM’s dissertation. JWM studied under H.R. Niebuhr; so his dissertation was in that context. Joe submitted the dissertation more than once in order to try to satisfy HRN’s standards/desires. Finally, when Joe sent to HRN what he thought was to be his final submission, HRN was not satisfied and requested yet another version. Joe just stopped the whole project. That happened while he was at Perkins where Charles and I first knew him. There may be versions of his dissertation extant, but he never really had one that was accepted by HRN. Some people may have called Joe “Dr.” or sent letters addressed to “Dr.,” but he never really was “Dr.”. He was a revolutionary from the beginning, and that’s how we all knew him. Doris Hahn On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 6:57 AM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Herman Greene is connected into that network Cobb, process philosophy, etc. I am currently enrolled in a course he is leading on living in the Anthropocene era.
Jim Wiegel
“…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“.
The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver
On Oct 6, 2022, at 11:26 PM, rev.bud@mac.com wrote:
Might I suggest that one possible place for JWM’s thesis be the website Religion Online. If I understand R O’s current status, in has been put in the hands of Clarmont School of Theology, and possibly with John Cobb. If any of you out there are in touch with John Cobb, would you say so. I think Cobb would be interested in this attempt to resurrect JWM’s thesis. As well as being the major voice for the Whiteheadian Process theology, Cobb is in the Wesleyan tradition. I think he could be intrigued by an existentialist slant on Wesley. Cobb at 93 would be a contemporary of Matthews
https://www.religion-online.org/ Religion Online began with American teachers who were teaching in the ’third world’ and finding text books out of the price range of their students. Putting the thesis here would also make it available to persons world-wide who have been influenced by Matthews and his EI/ICA work.
See also Thomas Oord:
https://www.religion-online.org/article/types-of-wesleyan-philosophy-the-gen...
Bud Tillinghast One who visited CFLC in Easter ’61 only to find the crew I was looking for was just off to Chicago.
On 7 Oct 2022, at 00:22, W. J. via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Friends, I actually read most of chapter 1 of JWM's dissertation, which is a long haul. (OK, so I speed-read the last part!) So here are my thoughts and questions. First, does anybody know what happened to the actual boxed hard copy I saw in the Archives office? Second, does anybody know whether Wesley Theological Seminary has a hard copy in their JWM archive collection? Third, can anyone confirm, correct, or elaborate on the story I heard from Marge (I think) about how JWM refused to 'tweak' his dissertation, and thus never got his Ph.D. degree? Or tell us anything else they know about the origin and/or transmission of the manuscript? I would love to hear about this from LiDonna, Sarah B., Fishel, Lingo, Gilles, Walters, Gene, Beret, Aimee, or any others still alive whose memory goes back as far as CFLC and the early days of EI. And anyone else who may have heard this story from Marge. Fourth: My own somewhat vague memory is that JWM wrote this at Yale for H. Richard Niebuhr. Is that accurate? (see The Founders – ICA Social Research Center <https://icaglobalarchives.org/collections/institutes-history/joseph-w-mathews/> ) Fifth, how can we date the completion/rejection/abandonment of JWM's dissertation? I would guess that it was while he was teaching at Colgate Rochester as an ABD faculty member. Is there a date on the ms. or some kind of documentation? Sixth, is there a copyright notice, and if so, who owns the copyright? Seventh, who added the running page header that says "Chapter one mathews"? It just doesn't strike me as being part of the original typescript. Now, for the icing on this cake! I for one would vote to do all we can to reconstruct and correct the minutae of JWM's dissertation and produce a .pdf that could be widely available. Perhaps as a freely available document on a theological dissertation website. Or perhaps we could reformat the text with added section subheads (you know, they did that to English translations of the Bible! those subheads are not in the original Greek and Hebrew!) and even add a contemporary Forward. Or even publish it on Amazon! At age 82 I always contemplate the option of Doing Nothing! So we could just do nothing more with the JWM dissertation. Plus, at 82 I'm aware of the mantra, 'Just do it now!' Or maybe later will be too late! Because, starting many years ago, it was not considered exactly missionally relevant. Even by JWM. He just moved on. And perhaps he considered all that effort to complete his Ph.D. a misfire. Or a most unfortunate fire! Or whatever. But I encourage us to think in terms of this (admittedly bad) analogy: imagine that Picasso doodled a face on a napkin. It's still a Picasso! (Please let me know if you have any of his napkins.) So here's what I got from reading (more or less) chapter 1. We may not actually care very much about how John Wesley used his classical 18th century education and intelligence to understand and describe the human condition in relation to his grasp of the nature of the physical universe and his personal relationship with Ultimate Reality. But Joe Mathews did. So if you read his dissertation, what you get is Joe's 20th century theological lens applied to understand Wesley's theological world. I would venture to add that, IMHO, Mathews has added a significant voice or POV to Wesley scholarship, getting inside Wesley's construction of intimate human reality by placing Wesley's words in the context of his functioning intellectual universe of Western scholarship (from Hume to Descartes to Aquinas, etc.). Mathews is charting Wesley's understanding of epistemology (including his perception of divine activity in human experience) and his theological anthropology. It's Mathews' reading of Wesley's theological formulation of his personal process of his deepening, transformative experience of 'sanctification'. And, of course, it sounds more like Mathews' existentialist theological lingo than Wesley's 18th century theological formulations. For example, "the naked givenness of the impression" just doesn't sound like it was plucked from a Wesley sermon! In a nutshell, Mathews is 'decoding' Wesley for twentieth century scholarly readers. (Who else reads Wesley's sermons? I ask. Raise your hands, please! I thought so.) Maybe that's why it didn't pass muster with HRNiebuhr! Anyway, enough blah-blah-blah. I vote for resurrecting this hidden/undiscovered gem for the few remaining authentic Wesley scholars to chew on. And/or spit up. Any others of us are welcome to join in the fun by charting it. Marshall
Links in the message (1) The Founders – ICA Social Research Center <https://icaglobalarchives.org/collections/institutes-history/joseph-w-mathews/> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022, 09:13:01 AM EDT, James Wiegel < jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Has anyone looked at Slicker's master's thesis? He mentioned it as his formulation of RS-1 when we visited him in 2007 23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ly55WhjSk&list=PLUk2c_1SJ0s_SYiUeyuTyzZZ8k8AUblRA&index=35>
23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ly55WhjSk&list=PLUk2c_1SJ0s_SYiUeyuTyzZZ8k8AUblRA&index=35>
The thought has crossed my mind . . . I wonder whether Joe's approach -- Ecumenical Institute approach -- more on the ethical side, almost coming at theology as an anthropological study -- remember the quote to Msgr. Egan -- we tried to show the church it was about humanness . . . sort of put him outside "real" theology in an academic sense -- or maybe it was just having to type it over again??
Jim Wiegel <http://partnersinparticipation.com/james-wiegel/>
The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plain sailing. John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353
623-363-3277
jfwiegel@yahoo.com <marilyn.oyler@gmail.com>
www.partnersinparticipation.com
On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 10:04:14 AM MST, David Dunn via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi Marshall, Karen and colleagues.
I’ve done a quick comparison of the four documents in the Archive ( https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/) and the photocopy of JWM’s thesis that I have. The four documents in the Archive are the four chapters of JWM's thesis. A quick survey suggests that the only parts of the thesis missing from the Archive copy are the Title page, the comprehensive Table of Contents, the Introduction to the thesis and a few footnotes.
This means that we’ll have the entire thesis with the addition of scans of the Table of Contents (2 pages), the Introduction (4 pages) and the cover.
A few good copy editor souls need to compare the PDF against the photocopy to correct the numbering of a few of the footnotes and other typos that might appear—easy corrections in the PDF
I’ve forgotten whose photocopy I copied (my copy is at least a second generation copy), but that means that there is likely at least one 2nd generation copy in someone else’s hands.
In any case, we’re close to having a pristine PDF of the entire thesis.
This was a pleasing experience of network intelligence.
David
*On Oct 2, 2022, Karen Snyder wrote:* In light of it being about John Wesley, it either is JWM’s doctoral thesis or something he wrote related to it. You can see what we have presently in the Archives under Periodicals here related to his doctoral thesis: https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/.
If it is different, than it should be added here as well. Are you able to scan it? If not, send it to Chicago, and we will scan it. We do scanning four days a week so it would be done immediately. Once scanned and added to the Periodicals, it is available for anyone to read it who wishes to.
*On Oct 2, 2022, Marshall Jones replied:* So David's precious xerox is probably copied from this original. I think the typescript is also available in a digital scan on-line.
—
<DMD email sig photo small-Nov2012.jpg>
"Mystery, possibility, and the power to choose"
David Dunn 740 S Alton Way 9B Denver, CO 80247 720-314-5991 dmdunn1@gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
<DMD email sig photo small-Nov2012.jpg> _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Just for clarification, you said "That happened while he was at Perkins . . ." What year / years was that? Also you said "JWM studied under H. R. Niebuhr, so his dissertation was in that context" Can you say a bit more about "that context"? Thanks. Jim Wiegel Theunknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybodyscurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, allthat. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plainsailing. John Lennon 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:14:29 PM MST, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Dear O.E. Folks: Justa note about JWM’s dissertation. JWM studied under H.R. Niebuhr; so his dissertation was inthat context. Joe submitted thedissertation more than once in order to try to satisfy HRN’s standards/desires.Finally, when Joe sent to HRN what he thought was to be his final submission,HRN was not satisfied and requested yet another version. Joe just stopped the whole project. Thathappened while he was at Perkins where Charles and I first knew him. There may be versions of his dissertation extant, but henever really had one that was accepted by HRN. Some people may have called Joe “Dr.” or sent lettersaddressed to “Dr.,” but he never really was “Dr.”. He was a revolutionary fromthe beginning, and that’s how we all knew him. Doris Hahn On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 6:57 AM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Herman Greene is connected into that network Cobb, process philosophy, etc. I am currently enrolled in a course he is leading on living in the Anthropocene era. Jim Wiegel “…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“. The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver On Oct 6, 2022, at 11:26 PM, rev.bud@mac.com wrote: Might I suggest that one possible place for JWM’s thesis be the website Religion Online. If I understand R O’s current status, in has been put in the hands of Clarmont School of Theology, and possibly with John Cobb. If any of you out there are in touch with John Cobb, would you say so. I think Cobb would be interested in this attempt to resurrect JWM’s thesis. As well as being the major voice for the Whiteheadian Process theology, Cobb is in the Wesleyan tradition. I think he could be intrigued by an existentialist slant on Wesley. Cobb at 93 would be a contemporary of Matthews https://www.religion-online.org/Religion Online began with American teachers who were teaching in the ’third world’ and finding text books out of the price range of their students. Putting the thesis here would also make it available to persons world-wide who have been influenced by Matthews and his EI/ICA work. See also Thomas Oord:https://www.religion-online.org/article/types-of-wesleyan-philosophy-the-gen... Bud TillinghastOne who visited CFLC in Easter ’61 only to find the crew I was looking for was just off to Chicago. On 7 Oct 2022, at 00:22, W. J. via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Friends, I actually read most of chapter 1 of JWM's dissertation, which is a long haul. (OK, so I speed-read the last part!)So here are my thoughts and questions.First, does anybody know what happened to the actual boxed hard copy I saw in the Archives office?Second, does anybody know whether Wesley Theological Seminary has a hard copy in their JWM archive collection?Third, can anyone confirm, correct, or elaborate on the story I heard from Marge (I think) about how JWM refused to 'tweak' his dissertation, and thus never got his Ph.D. degree? Or tell us anything else they know about the origin and/or transmission of the manuscript?I would love to hear about this from LiDonna, Sarah B., Fishel, Lingo, Gilles, Walters, Gene, Beret, Aimee, or any others still alive whose memory goes back as far as CFLC and the early days of EI. And anyone else who may have heard this story from Marge.Fourth: My own somewhat vague memory is that JWM wrote this at Yale for H. Richard Niebuhr. Is that accurate? (see The Founders – ICA Social Research Center)Fifth, how can we date the completion/rejection/abandonment of JWM's dissertation? I would guess that it was while he was teaching at Colgate Rochester as an ABD faculty member. Is there a date on the ms. or some kind of documentation?Sixth, is there a copyright notice, and if so, who owns the copyright?Seventh, who added the running page header that says "Chapter one mathews"?It just doesn't strike me as being part of the original typescript.Now, for the icing on this cake!I for one would vote to do all we can to reconstruct and correct the minutae of JWM's dissertation and produce a .pdf that could be widely available. Perhaps as a freely available document on a theological dissertation website. Or perhaps we could reformat the text with added section subheads (you know, they did that to English translations of the Bible! those subheads are not in the original Greek and Hebrew!) and even add a contemporary Forward.Or even publish it on Amazon!At age 82 I always contemplate the option of Doing Nothing! So we could just do nothing more with the JWM dissertation.Plus, at 82 I'm aware of the mantra, 'Just do it now!' Or maybe later will be too late! Because, starting many years ago, it was not considered exactly missionally relevant. Even by JWM. He just moved on. And perhaps he considered all that effort to complete his Ph.D. a misfire. Or a most unfortunate fire! Or whatever.But I encourage us to think in terms of this (admittedly bad) analogy: imagine that Picasso doodled a face on a napkin. It's still a Picasso!(Please let me know if you have any of his napkins.)So here's what I got from reading (more or less) chapter 1.We may not actually care very much about how John Wesley used his classical 18th century education and intelligence to understand and describe the human condition in relation to his grasp of the nature of the physical universe and his personal relationship with Ultimate Reality.But Joe Mathews did.So if you read his dissertation, what you get is Joe's 20th century theological lens applied to understand Wesley's theological world. I would venture to add that, IMHO, Mathews has added a significant voice or POV to Wesley scholarship, getting inside Wesley's construction of intimate human reality by placing Wesley's words in the context of his functioning intellectual universe of Western scholarship (from Hume to Descartes to Aquinas, etc.).Mathews is charting Wesley's understanding of epistemology (including his perception of divine activity in human experience) and his theological anthropology.It's Mathews' reading of Wesley's theological formulation of his personal process of his deepening, transformative experience of 'sanctification'. And, of course, it sounds more like Mathews' existentialist theological lingo than Wesley's 18th century theological formulations.For example, "the naked givenness of the impression" just doesn't sound like it was plucked from a Wesley sermon!In a nutshell, Mathews is 'decoding' Wesley for twentieth century scholarly readers. (Who else reads Wesley's sermons? I ask. Raise your hands, please! I thought so.)Maybe that's why it didn't pass muster with HRNiebuhr!Anyway, enough blah-blah-blah.I vote for resurrecting this hidden/undiscovered gem for the few remaining authentic Wesley scholars to chew on. And/or spit up.Any others of us are welcome to join in the fun by charting it.Marshall Links in the message (1) | | | The Founders – ICA Social Research Center | On Tuesday, October 4, 2022, 09:13:01 AM EDT, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote: Has anyone looked at Slicker's master's thesis? He mentioned it as his formulation of RS-1 when we visited him in 200723 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1 | | | | | | | | | | | 23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1 | | | The thought has crossed my mind . . . I wonder whether Joe's approach -- Ecumenical Institute approach -- more on the ethical side, almost coming at theology as an anthropological study -- remember the quote to Msgr. Egan -- we tried to show the church it was about humanness . . . sort of put him outside "real" theology in an academic sense -- or maybe it was just having to type it over again?? Jim Wiegel Theunknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybodyscurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, allthat. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plainsailing. John Lennon 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 10:04:14 AM MST, David Dunn via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Hi Marshall, Karen and colleagues. I’ve done a quick comparison of the four documents in the Archive (https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/) and the photocopy of JWM’s thesis that I have. The four documents in the Archive are the four chapters of JWM's thesis. A quick survey suggests that the only parts of the thesis missing from the Archive copy are the Title page, the comprehensive Table of Contents, the Introduction to the thesis and a few footnotes. This means that we’ll have the entire thesis with the addition of scans of the Table of Contents (2 pages), the Introduction (4 pages) and the cover. A few good copy editor souls need to compare the PDF against the photocopy to correct the numbering of a few of the footnotes and other typos that might appear—easy corrections in the PDF I’ve forgotten whose photocopy I copied (my copy is at least a second generation copy), but that means that there is likely at least one 2nd generation copy in someone else’s hands. In any case, we’re close to having a pristine PDF of the entire thesis. This was a pleasing experience of network intelligence. David On Oct 2, 2022, Karen Snyder wrote:In light of it being about John Wesley, it either is JWM’s doctoral thesis or something he wrote related to it. You can see what we have presently in the Archives under Periodicals here related to his doctoral thesis: https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/. If it is different, than it should be added here as well. Are you able to scan it? If not, send it to Chicago, and we will scan it. We do scanning four days a week so it would be done immediately. Once scanned and added to the Periodicals, it is available for anyone to read it who wishes to. On Oct 2, 2022, Marshall Jones replied:So David's precious xerox is probably copied from this original.I think the typescript is also available in a digital scan on-line. — <DMD email sig photo small-Nov2012.jpg> "Mystery, possibility, and the power to choose" David Dunn 740 S Alton Way 9B Denver, CO 80247 720-314-5991 dmdunn1@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net <DMD email sig photo small-Nov2012.jpg>_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Doris, Thank you for that clarification. It matches the way Marge described the situation. Hope you are doing well! Paula
On Oct 20, 2022, at 3:01 PM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Just for clarification, you said "That happened while he was at Perkins . . ." What year / years was that?
Also you said "JWM studied under H. R. Niebuhr, so his dissertation was in that context" Can you say a bit more about "that context"?
Thanks.
Jim Wiegel The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plain sailing. John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 12:14:29 PM MST, Doris Hahn via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear O.E. Folks: Just a note about JWM’s dissertation.
JWM studied under H.R. Niebuhr; so his dissertation was in that context. Joe submitted the dissertation more than once in order to try to satisfy HRN’s standards/desires. Finally, when Joe sent to HRN what he thought was to be his final submission, HRN was not satisfied and requested yet another version. Joe just stopped the whole project. That happened while he was at Perkins where Charles and I first knew him.
There may be versions of his dissertation extant, but he never really had one that was accepted by HRN.
Some people may have called Joe “Dr.” or sent letters addressed to “Dr.,” but he never really was “Dr.”. He was a revolutionary from the beginning, and that’s how we all knew him.
Doris Hahn
On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 6:57 AM James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Herman Greene is connected into that network Cobb, process philosophy, etc. I am currently enrolled in a course he is leading on living in the Anthropocene era.
Jim Wiegel “…the long work of turning their lives into a celebration is not easy. Come and let us talk“.
The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver
On Oct 6, 2022, at 11:26 PM, rev.bud@mac.com wrote:
Might I suggest that one possible place for JWM’s thesis be the website Religion Online. If I understand R O’s current status, in has been put in the hands of Clarmont School of Theology, and possibly with John Cobb. If any of you out there are in touch with John Cobb, would you say so. I think Cobb would be interested in this attempt to resurrect JWM’s thesis. As well as being the major voice for the Whiteheadian Process theology, Cobb is in the Wesleyan tradition. I think he could be intrigued by an existentialist slant on Wesley. Cobb at 93 would be a contemporary of Matthews
https://www.religion-online.org/ Religion Online began with American teachers who were teaching in the ’third world’ and finding text books out of the price range of their students. Putting the thesis here would also make it available to persons world-wide who have been influenced by Matthews and his EI/ICA work.
See also Thomas Oord: https://www.religion-online.org/article/types-of-wesleyan-philosophy-the-gen...
Bud Tillinghast One who visited CFLC in Easter ’61 only to find the crew I was looking for was just off to Chicago.
On 7 Oct 2022, at 00:22, W. J. via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Friends, I actually read most of chapter 1 of JWM's dissertation, which is a long haul. (OK, so I speed-read the last part!) So here are my thoughts and questions. First, does anybody know what happened to the actual boxed hard copy I saw in the Archives office? Second, does anybody know whether Wesley Theological Seminary has a hard copy in their JWM archive collection? Third, can anyone confirm, correct, or elaborate on the story I heard from Marge (I think) about how JWM refused to 'tweak' his dissertation, and thus never got his Ph.D. degree? Or tell us anything else they know about the origin and/or transmission of the manuscript? I would love to hear about this from LiDonna, Sarah B., Fishel, Lingo, Gilles, Walters, Gene, Beret, Aimee, or any others still alive whose memory goes back as far as CFLC and the early days of EI. And anyone else who may have heard this story from Marge. Fourth: My own somewhat vague memory is that JWM wrote this at Yale for H. Richard Niebuhr. Is that accurate? (see The Founders – ICA Social Research Center) Fifth, how can we date the completion/rejection/abandonment of JWM's dissertation? I would guess that it was while he was teaching at Colgate Rochester as an ABD faculty member. Is there a date on the ms. or some kind of documentation? Sixth, is there a copyright notice, and if so, who owns the copyright? Seventh, who added the running page header that says "Chapter one mathews"? It just doesn't strike me as being part of the original typescript. Now, for the icing on this cake! I for one would vote to do all we can to reconstruct and correct the minutae of JWM's dissertation and produce a .pdf that could be widely available. Perhaps as a freely available document on a theological dissertation website. Or perhaps we could reformat the text with added section subheads (you know, they did that to English translations of the Bible! those subheads are not in the original Greek and Hebrew!) and even add a contemporary Forward. Or even publish it on Amazon! At age 82 I always contemplate the option of Doing Nothing! So we could just do nothing more with the JWM dissertation. Plus, at 82 I'm aware of the mantra, 'Just do it now!' Or maybe later will be too late! Because, starting many years ago, it was not considered exactly missionally relevant. Even by JWM. He just moved on. And perhaps he considered all that effort to complete his Ph.D. a misfire. Or a most unfortunate fire! Or whatever. But I encourage us to think in terms of this (admittedly bad) analogy: imagine that Picasso doodled a face on a napkin. It's still a Picasso! (Please let me know if you have any of his napkins.) So here's what I got from reading (more or less) chapter 1. We may not actually care very much about how John Wesley used his classical 18th century education and intelligence to understand and describe the human condition in relation to his grasp of the nature of the physical universe and his personal relationship with Ultimate Reality. But Joe Mathews did. So if you read his dissertation, what you get is Joe's 20th century theological lens applied to understand Wesley's theological world. I would venture to add that, IMHO, Mathews has added a significant voice or POV to Wesley scholarship, getting inside Wesley's construction of intimate human reality by placing Wesley's words in the context of his functioning intellectual universe of Western scholarship (from Hume to Descartes to Aquinas, etc.). Mathews is charting Wesley's understanding of epistemology (including his perception of divine activity in human experience) and his theological anthropology. It's Mathews' reading of Wesley's theological formulation of his personal process of his deepening, transformative experience of 'sanctification'. And, of course, it sounds more like Mathews' existentialist theological lingo than Wesley's 18th century theological formulations. For example, "the naked givenness of the impression" just doesn't sound like it was plucked from a Wesley sermon! In a nutshell, Mathews is 'decoding' Wesley for twentieth century scholarly readers. (Who else reads Wesley's sermons? I ask. Raise your hands, please! I thought so.) Maybe that's why it didn't pass muster with HRNiebuhr! Anyway, enough blah-blah-blah. I vote for resurrecting this hidden/undiscovered gem for the few remaining authentic Wesley scholars to chew on. And/or spit up. Any others of us are welcome to join in the fun by charting it. Marshall
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The Founders – ICA Social Research Center On Tuesday, October 4, 2022, 09:13:01 AM EDT, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Has anyone looked at Slicker's master's thesis? He mentioned it as his formulation of RS-1 when we visited him in 2007 23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1
23 Joe Slicker My Masters Degree was RS 1
The thought has crossed my mind . . . I wonder whether Joe's approach -- Ecumenical Institute approach -- more on the ethical side, almost coming at theology as an anthropological study -- remember the quote to Msgr. Egan -- we tried to show the church it was about humanness . . . sort of put him outside "real" theology in an academic sense -- or maybe it was just having to type it over again??
Jim Wiegel
The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plain sailing. John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353 623-363-3277 jfwiegel@yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 10:04:14 AM MST, David Dunn via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi Marshall, Karen and colleagues.
I’ve done a quick comparison of the four documents in the Archive (https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/) and the photocopy of JWM’s thesis that I have. The four documents in the Archive are the four chapters of JWM's thesis. A quick survey suggests that the only parts of the thesis missing from the Archive copy are the Title page, the comprehensive Table of Contents, the Introduction to the thesis and a few footnotes.
This means that we’ll have the entire thesis with the addition of scans of the Table of Contents (2 pages), the Introduction (4 pages) and the cover.
A few good copy editor souls need to compare the PDF against the photocopy to correct the numbering of a few of the footnotes and other typos that might appear—easy corrections in the PDF
I’ve forgotten whose photocopy I copied (my copy is at least a second generation copy), but that means that there is likely at least one 2nd generation copy in someone else’s hands.
In any case, we’re close to having a pristine PDF of the entire thesis.
This was a pleasing experience of network intelligence.
David
On Oct 2, 2022, Karen Snyder wrote: In light of it being about John Wesley, it either is JWM’s doctoral thesis or something he wrote related to it. You can see what we have presently in the Archives under Periodicals here related to his doctoral thesis: https://icaglobalarchives.org/resources/.
If it is different, than it should be added here as well. Are you able to scan it? If not, send it to Chicago, and we will scan it. We do scanning four days a week so it would be done immediately. Once scanned and added to the Periodicals, it is available for anyone to read it who wishes to.
On Oct 2, 2022, Marshall Jones replied: So David's precious xerox is probably copied from this original. I think the typescript is also available in a digital scan on-line.
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participants (3)
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Doris Hahn -
James Wiegel -
Paula Philbrook