Thanks, Ellie, your posts are helpful. My struggle at the moment is how little I know of all the infusion of scientific discoveries from the underpinnings of DNA to the Dark Holes and planets beyond planets, and how disconnected religion, institutional, spiritual and otherwise is from the world I think I’m living in. Your readings, some of which I’ve read, are encouraging. It would seem to me that religion has always grown out of its experience with the world. Floods, earthquakes, star bursts have led to understandings of a god who creates, punishes, saves, guides, etc., and to understandings of how to relate to each other, as those perceptions of reality shifted religion has had to reinterpret its stories both of the world and its relationships to each other. My understanding is at the heart of all religion is the love of neighbor as the only sane course, with lots of qualifications from time to time to allow hatred, distrust and separation in certain circumstances. I believe religion, spiritual, institutional and otherwise all have a role to play in our conscious lives, but what is it now? In talking to the millennials I know, who have the time to talk with an old geezer, they do not appear to have much of a grasp of the past and less interest in formal religion, spiritual or otherwise. Their focus seems to be almost exclusively on the here and now, especially as viewed through their digital lens. Some call this secularization. What does this mean for us going forward? The horrible conditions of poverty and injustice in so many parts of the world from North Dakota to the poor even in the wealthiest nation in the world, along with climate change, gets such little play. Again our knowledge is minimal and our religious response fuzzy at best. The Pope has made some loud statements, but most religions remain somewhat muted. Large foundations like the Gates, Clinton’s, the work of the Carters catch the headlines, but by and large they have side stepped formal religion. The furious wars such as in Syria have produced minimal response from the religious dynamic. Is there a new religious dynamic afoot that we don’t see? (Remembering the RS-I illustration of the church working underground) And will it reconnect with our scientific search and the quest for justice, peace and love? I do see folks here and there trying to forge a new reality. An attorney I know who is a woman, who has given herself to working on behalf of the immigrant families imprisoned on our Texas border and working to change laws using science and reason, those in North Dakota, and so many here and there. Is this the new form of religion? Can you know any of this and sit on the sidelines? So much to explore. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 23, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote:
Hi George,
Greetings from St. Louie! Hope you and Wanda are doing well.
Following up on your listserve email and what I just sent re science/theology... this is just an addendum...
Sunday, August 21, Carleton and I led Second Presbyterian Church's annual outdoor service (coordinated by our Earth Care Team) and picnic at a nearby park in the Turkish Pavilion which had 14 tables set up in a circle. The theme of the service was The Tree of Life. The tables were covered with green cloths with helium earth balloons attached. In the middle was a covered card table with an earth beach ball on it, flowers, the offering baskets, two toy red-eyed tree frogs, and 2 pots of sunflowers on the floor next to it. An Earth banner was at the designated "front" of the circle.
During the service, instead of a sermon, I did a Scripture/Arts Reflection, using a painting done by a friend and colleague of ours--a physician and member of First PC, Ferguson and resident of Ferguson. A picture of the painting was on an easel in the front of the pavilion by the Earth Banner and was also printed on the bulletin cover.
This is one way we try to weave together the science and theology themes at the local church level.. Last Sunday we studied PC(USA)'s "Affirmation of Creation". Over the years at the church from which we retired, I have done studies on evolution and Christianity and other "Big History/Picture" themes (not creationism).
Attached are copies of the bulletin and the Scripture/Arts Reflection.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
<21st Sunday in Ord Time 2016 - Aug. 21, 2016.docx><SCRIPTURE-ARTS, Second PC, Outdoor service, 8-21-16, LARGE PRINT.docx>
Dear All, The ability to reconcile religion and science is dependent on the ability to recognize that all “things” relate to a common centre. The current scientific paradigm does not recognise a common inside with a common outside. Language itself is the basis of “separateness” and the Universal Centre is the Void (what we called the Other World) which is not in the domain of language. Instead, the main unifying dimension that most (certainly not all) scientist use for the Universe is “The Big Bang”, that states that all “things” had a common beginning in Space and Time. It is a theory that can never ever be confirmed in experience. So the Universal and the Particular must both be true beyond space and time. If you are willing to follow this path then here is a link that will give you the basis of understanding. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Truth_Bias.html <http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Truth_Bias.html> You will see he covers the Tree of Life. And if you want to dig much deeper into the understanding then here is a second link that expands on the first through the understanding of Quantum theory, light and much more. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Unified_Theories.html <http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Unified_Theories.html> That is why I feel work on the Other World was perhaps the greatest insight and research we ever did. Along with the NRM and Profound Humanness we did a pretty good job of what it means to live with integrity and in relationship with G.O.D. Grace & Peace, Jack
On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:01, George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thanks, Ellie, your posts are helpful. My struggle at the moment is how little I know of all the infusion of scientific discoveries from the underpinnings of DNA to the Dark Holes and planets beyond planets, and how disconnected religion, institutional, spiritual and otherwise is from the world I think I’m living in. Your readings, some of which I’ve read, are encouraging. It would seem to me that religion has always grown out of its experience with the world. Floods, earthquakes, star bursts have led to understandings of a god who creates, punishes, saves, guides, etc., and to understandings of how to relate to each other, as those perceptions of reality shifted religion has had to reinterpret its stories both of the world and its relationships to each other. My understanding is at the heart of all religion is the love of neighbor as the only sane course, with lots of qualifications from time to time to allow hatred, distrust and separation in certain circumstances. I believe religion, spiritual, institutional and otherwise all have a role to play in our conscious lives, but what is it now? In talking to the millennials I know, who have the time to talk with an old geezer, they do not appear to have much of a grasp of the past and less interest in formal religion, spiritual or otherwise. Their focus seems to be almost exclusively on the here and now, especially as viewed through their digital lens. Some call this secularization. What does this mean for us going forward?
The horrible conditions of poverty and injustice in so many parts of the world from North Dakota to the poor even in the wealthiest nation in the world, along with climate change, gets such little play. Again our knowledge is minimal and our religious response fuzzy at best. The Pope has made some loud statements, but most religions remain somewhat muted. Large foundations like the Gates, Clinton’s, the work of the Carters catch the headlines, but by and large they have side stepped formal religion. The furious wars such as in Syria have produced minimal response from the religious dynamic. Is there a new religious dynamic afoot that we don’t see? (Remembering the RS-I illustration of the church working underground) And will it reconnect with our scientific search and the quest for justice, peace and love?
I do see folks here and there trying to forge a new reality. An attorney I know who is a woman, who has given herself to working on behalf of the immigrant families imprisoned on our Texas border and working to change laws using science and reason, those in North Dakota, and so many here and there. Is this the new form of religion? Can you know any of this and sit on the sidelines? So much to explore.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com <mailto:geowanda1@me.com>
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 23, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com <mailto:elliestock@aol.com>> wrote:
Hi George,
Greetings from St. Louie! Hope you and Wanda are doing well.
Following up on your listserve email and what I just sent re science/theology... this is just an addendum...
Sunday, August 21, Carleton and I led Second Presbyterian Church's annual outdoor service (coordinated by our Earth Care Team) and picnic at a nearby park in the Turkish Pavilion which had 14 tables set up in a circle. The theme of the service was The Tree of Life. The tables were covered with green cloths with helium earth balloons attached. In the middle was a covered card table with an earth beach ball on it, flowers, the offering baskets, two toy red-eyed tree frogs, and 2 pots of sunflowers on the floor next to it. An Earth banner was at the designated "front" of the circle.
During the service, instead of a sermon, I did a Scripture/Arts Reflection, using a painting done by a friend and colleague of ours--a physician and member of First PC, Ferguson and resident of Ferguson. A picture of the painting was on an easel in the front of the pavilion by the Earth Banner and was also printed on the bulletin cover.
This is one way we try to weave together the science and theology themes at the local church level.. Last Sunday we studied PC(USA)'s "Affirmation of Creation". Over the years at the church from which we retired, I have done studies on evolution and Christianity and other "Big History/Picture" themes (not creationism).
Attached are copies of the bulletin and the Scripture/Arts Reflection.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com <mailto:elliestock@aol.com>
<21st Sunday in Ord Time 2016 - Aug. 21, 2016.docx><SCRIPTURE-ARTS, Second PC, Outdoor service, 8-21-16, LARGE PRINT.docx>
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks for and building on your comments George and Jack and others (and I would look forward to hearing from others on this... The way I look at it is that the positive "bubblings up" that Hawken refers to in his book Blessed Unrest are, in fact, the Church as Social Pioneer; and some parts of some institutional religions are part of that evolutionary process which develops, grows, and proliferates as it differentiates, diversifies, complexifies, and communes, all dimensions of which have a common center with all else that exists cosmologically and microscopically. Sometimes the "bubblings up" are covert, underground wells and streams and sometimes they are more like rivers and lakes and oceans and rainstorms. But all are connected and working together in the long run as the nourishing veins of the planet and earth cultures as they learn how to work and live and thrive together creatively and sustainably. The dark side or involutionary efforts mentioned in the article highlighted by Jack are those that refuse to acknowledge and honor the reality and gifts of differentiation, diversity, complexity and communion and eventually (not necessarily without consequences) become dead ends or self-destruct. Human beings, in relationship to the entire Earth community, are making decisions that are part of both dimensions--the bubblings up and the dark side. They are life and death decisions. I'm trusting (Hope beyond hopes) that the bubblings up will prevail (oftentimes a messy, not without difficulty or struggle, process). Prayer, meditation, contemplation, (using these as secular/religious terms) etc. brings consciousness to the "center"/commonness/ connectedness/"Other World" that is BEING in/surrounding/under/all/ over all that is. The Bubblings Up are the fruit of this consciousness. Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com> To: George Holcombe <geowanda1@me.com>; Frank Cookingham via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com>; Tracy Longacre via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Sep 26, 2016 11:44 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tree of Life Reflection Dear All, The ability to reconcile religion and science is dependent on the ability to recognize that all “things” relate to a common centre. The current scientific paradigm does not recognise a common inside with a common outside. Language itself is the basis of “separateness” and the Universal Centre is the Void (what we called the Other World) which is not in the domain of language. Instead, the main unifying dimension that most (certainly not all) scientist use for the Universe is “The Big Bang”, that states that all “things” had a common beginning in Space and Time. It is a theory that can never ever be confirmed in experience. So the Universal and the Particular must both be true beyond space and time. If you are willing to follow this path then here is a link that will give you the basis of understanding. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Truth_Bias.html You will see he covers the Tree of Life. And if you want to dig much deeper into the understanding then here is a second link that expands on the first through the understanding of Quantum theory, light and much more. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Unified_Theories.html That is why I feel work on the Other World was perhaps the greatest insight and research we ever did. Along with the NRM and Profound Humanness we did a pretty good job of what it means to live with integrity and in relationship with G.O.D. Grace & Peace, Jack On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:01, George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Thanks, Ellie, your posts are helpful. My struggle at the moment is how little I know of all the infusion of scientific discoveries from the underpinnings of DNA to the Dark Holes and planets beyond planets, and how disconnected religion, institutional, spiritual and otherwise is from the world I think I’m living in. Your readings, some of which I’ve read, are encouraging. It would seem to me that religion has always grown out of its experience with the world. Floods, earthquakes, star bursts have led to understandings of a god who creates, punishes, saves, guides, etc., and to understandings of how to relate to each other, as those perceptions of reality shifted religion has had to reinterpret its stories both of the world and its relationships to each other. My understanding is at the heart of all religion is the love of neighbor as the only sane course, with lots of qualifications from time to time to allow hatred, distrust and separation in certain circumstances. I believe religion, spiritual, institutional and otherwise all have a role to play in our conscious lives, but what is it now? In talking to the millennials I know, who have the time to talk with an old geezer, they do not appear to have much of a grasp of the past and less interest in formal religion, spiritual or otherwise. Their focus seems to be almost exclusively on the here and now, especially as viewed through their digital lens. Some call this secularization. What does this mean for us going forward? The horrible conditions of poverty and injustice in so many parts of the world from North Dakota to the poor even in the wealthiest nation in the world, along with climate change, gets such little play. Again our knowledge is minimal and our religious response fuzzy at best. The Pope has made some loud statements, but most religions remain somewhat muted. Large foundations like the Gates, Clinton’s, the work of the Carters catch the headlines, but by and large they have side stepped formal religion. The furious wars such as in Syria have produced minimal response from the religious dynamic. Is there a new religious dynamic afoot that we don’t see? (Remembering the RS-I illustration of the church working underground) And will it reconnect with our scientific search and the quest for justice, peace and love? I do see folks here and there trying to forge a new reality. An attorney I know who is a woman, who has given herself to working on behalf of the immigrant families imprisoned on our Texas border and working to change laws using science and reason, those in North Dakota, and so many here and there. Is this the new form of religion? Can you know any of this and sit on the sidelines? So much to explore. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Sep 23, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote: Hi George, Greetings from St. Louie! Hope you and Wanda are doing well. Following up on your listserve email and what I just sent re science/theology... this is just an addendum... Sunday, August 21, Carleton and I led Second Presbyterian Church's annual outdoor service (coordinated by our Earth Care Team) and picnic at a nearby park in the Turkish Pavilion which had 14 tables set up in a circle. The theme of the service was The Tree of Life. The tables were covered with green cloths with helium earth balloons attached. In the middle was a covered card table with an earth beach ball on it, flowers, the offering baskets, two toy red-eyed tree frogs, and 2 pots of sunflowers on the floor next to it. An Earth banner was at the designated "front" of the circle. During the service, instead of a sermon, I did a Scripture/Arts Reflection, using a painting done by a friend and colleague of ours--a physician and member of First PC, Ferguson and resident of Ferguson. A picture of the painting was on an easel in the front of the pavilion by the Earth Banner and was also printed on the bulletin cover. This is one way we try to weave together the science and theology themes at the local church level.. Last Sunday we studied PC(USA)'s "Affirmation of Creation". Over the years at the church from which we retired, I have done studies on evolution and Christianity and other "Big History/Picture" themes (not creationism). Attached are copies of the bulletin and the Scripture/Arts Reflection. Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com <21st Sunday in Ord Time 2016 - Aug. 21, 2016.docx><SCRIPTURE-ARTS, Second PC, Outdoor service, 8-21-16, LARGE PRINT.docx> _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dear Ellie et al, This month I am co-leading a retreat SABBATH: A Day Apart, with the invitation to pray/meditate/contemplate our world and our part in it. The 'bubblings up' tend to need a bit of stop/look/listen! At the end of the month we are treating ourSelves to a road trip to Cincinnati to have a bit of time with the Lindblads. Love, Grace and Peace, Ellen On Sep 27, 2016, at 2:43 PM, Ellie Stock via OE wrote:
Thanks for and building on your comments George and Jack and others (and I would look forward to hearing from others on this...
The way I look at it is that the positive "bubblings up" that Hawken refers to in his book Blessed Unrest are, in fact, the Church as Social Pioneer; and some parts of some institutional religions are part of that evolutionary process which develops, grows, and proliferates as it differentiates, diversifies, complexifies, and communes, all dimensions of which have a common center with all else that exists cosmologically and microscopically. Sometimes the "bubblings up" are covert, underground wells and streams and sometimes they are more like rivers and lakes and oceans and rainstorms. But all are connected and working together in the long run as the nourishing veins of the planet and earth cultures as they learn how to work and live and thrive together creatively and sustainably.
The dark side or involutionary efforts mentioned in the article highlighted by Jack are those that refuse to acknowledge and honor the reality and gifts of differentiation, diversity, complexity and communion and eventually (not necessarily without consequences) become dead ends or self-destruct. Human beings, in relationship to the entire Earth community, are making decisions that are part of both dimensions--the bubblings up and the dark side. They are life and death decisions. I'm trusting (Hope beyond hopes) that the bubblings up will prevail (oftentimes a messy, not without difficulty or struggle, process).
Prayer, meditation, contemplation, (using these as secular/ religious terms) etc. brings consciousness to the "center"/ commonness/ connectedness/"Other World" that is BEING in/ surrounding/under/all/ over all that is. The Bubblings Up are the fruit of this consciousness.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com> To: George Holcombe <geowanda1@me.com>; Frank Cookingham via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com>; Tracy Longacre via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Sep 26, 2016 11:44 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tree of Life Reflection
Dear All,
The ability to reconcile religion and science is dependent on the ability to recognize that all “things” relate to a common centre. The current scientific paradigm does not recognise a common inside with a common outside. Language itself is the basis of “separateness” and the Universal Centre is the Void (what we called the Other World) which is not in the domain of language. Instead, the main unifying dimension that most (certainly not all) scientist use for the Universe is “The Big Bang”, that states that all “things” had a common beginning in Space and Time. It is a theory that can never ever be confirmed in experience. So the Universal and the Particular must both be true beyond space and time. If you are willing to follow this path then here is a link that will give you the basis of understanding. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/ Truth_Bias.html You will see he covers the Tree of Life.
And if you want to dig much deeper into the understanding then here is a second link that expands on the first through the understanding of Quantum theory, light and much more. http:// www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Unified_Theories.html
That is why I feel work on the Other World was perhaps the greatest insight and research we ever did. Along with the NRM and Profound Humanness we did a pretty good job of what it means to live with integrity and in relationship with G.O.D.
Grace & Peace,
Jack
On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:01, George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thanks, Ellie, your posts are helpful. My struggle at the moment is how little I know of all the infusion of scientific discoveries from the underpinnings of DNA to the Dark Holes and planets beyond planets, and how disconnected religion, institutional, spiritual and otherwise is from the world I think I’m living in. Your readings, some of which I’ve read, are encouraging. It would seem to me that religion has always grown out of its experience with the world. Floods, earthquakes, star bursts have led to understandings of a god who creates, punishes, saves, guides, etc., and to understandings of how to relate to each other, as those perceptions of reality shifted religion has had to reinterpret its stories both of the world and its relationships to each other. My understanding is at the heart of all religion is the love of neighbor as the only sane course, with lots of qualifications from time to time to allow hatred, distrust and separation in certain circumstances. I believe religion, spiritual, institutional and otherwise all have a role to play in our conscious lives, but what is it now? In talking to the millennials I know, who have the time to talk with an old geezer, they do not appear to have much of a grasp of the past and less interest in formal religion, spiritual or otherwise. Their focus seems to be almost exclusively on the here and now, especially as viewed through their digital lens. Some call this secularization. What does this mean for us going forward?
The horrible conditions of poverty and injustice in so many parts of the world from North Dakota to the poor even in the wealthiest nation in the world, along with climate change, gets such little play. Again our knowledge is minimal and our religious response fuzzy at best. The Pope has made some loud statements, but most religions remain somewhat muted. Large foundations like the Gates, Clinton’s, the work of the Carters catch the headlines, but by and large they have side stepped formal religion. The furious wars such as in Syria have produced minimal response from the religious dynamic. Is there a new religious dynamic afoot that we don’t see? (Remembering the RS-I illustration of the church working underground) And will it reconnect with our scientific search and the quest for justice, peace and love?
I do see folks here and there trying to forge a new reality. An attorney I know who is a woman, who has given herself to working on behalf of the immigrant families imprisoned on our Texas border and working to change laws using science and reason, those in North Dakota, and so many here and there. Is this the new form of religion? Can you know any of this and sit on the sidelines? So much to explore.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 23, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote:
Hi George,
Greetings from St. Louie! Hope you and Wanda are doing well.
Following up on your listserve email and what I just sent re science/theology... this is just an addendum...
Sunday, August 21, Carleton and I led Second Presbyterian Church's annual outdoor service (coordinated by our Earth Care Team) and picnic at a nearby park in the Turkish Pavilion which had 14 tables set up in a circle. The theme of the service was The Tree of Life. The tables were covered with green cloths with helium earth balloons attached. In the middle was a covered card table with an earth beach ball on it, flowers, the offering baskets, two toy red- eyed tree frogs, and 2 pots of sunflowers on the floor next to it. An Earth banner was at the designated "front" of the circle.
During the service, instead of a sermon, I did a Scripture/Arts Reflection, using a painting done by a friend and colleague of ours--a physician and member of First PC, Ferguson and resident of Ferguson. A picture of the painting was on an easel in the front of the pavilion by the Earth Banner and was also printed on the bulletin cover.
This is one way we try to weave together the science and theology themes at the local church level.. Last Sunday we studied PC (USA)'s "Affirmation of Creation". Over the years at the church from which we retired, I have done studies on evolution and Christianity and other "Big History/Picture" themes (not creationism).
Attached are copies of the bulletin and the Scripture/Arts Reflection.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
<21st Sunday in Ord Time 2016 - Aug. 21, 2016.docx><SCRIPTURE-ARTS, Second PC, Outdoor service, 8-21-16, LARGE PRINT.docx>
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Dear Ellen, Thankyou for sharing about you Retreat Day. It would be lovely if you could pass on to us what is the content or what resources you will use...such as poems, or readings or 'spaces' that you create during the day. I would offer the word curriculum,but I think this word is too heavy nowadays. What is the date of your Retreat Day Ellen? Greetings and peace,joy and love be yours. 🎉🎊 Isobel My profound gratitude to all who write on this list. It is a lifeline for me. Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Oct 2016, at 10:35 pm, Richard Howie via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Ellie et al, This month I am co-leading a retreat SABBATH: A Day Apart, with the invitation to pray/meditate/contemplate our world and our part in it. The 'bubblings up' tend to need a bit of stop/look/listen! At the end of the month we are treating ourSelves to a road trip to Cincinnati to have a bit of time with the Lindblads. Love, Grace and Peace, Ellen
On Sep 27, 2016, at 2:43 PM, Ellie Stock via OE wrote:
Thanks for and building on your comments George and Jack and others (and I would look forward to hearing from others on this...
The way I look at it is that the positive "bubblings up" that Hawken refers to in his book Blessed Unrest are, in fact, the Church as Social Pioneer; and some parts of some institutional religions are part of that evolutionary process which develops, grows, and proliferates as it differentiates, diversifies, complexifies, and communes, all dimensions of which have a common center with all else that exists cosmologically and microscopically. Sometimes the "bubblings up" are covert, underground wells and streams and sometimes they are more like rivers and lakes and oceans and rainstorms. But all are connected and working together in the long run as the nourishing veins of the planet and earth cultures as they learn how to work and live and thrive together creatively and sustainably.
The dark side or involutionary efforts mentioned in the article highlighted by Jack are those that refuse to acknowledge and honor the reality and gifts of differentiation, diversity, complexity and communion and eventually (not necessarily without consequences) become dead ends or self-destruct. Human beings, in relationship to the entire Earth community, are making decisions that are part of both dimensions--the bubblings up and the dark side. They are life and death decisions. I'm trusting (Hope beyond hopes) that the bubblings up will prevail (oftentimes a messy, not without difficulty or struggle, process).
Prayer, meditation, contemplation, (using these as secular/religious terms) etc. brings consciousness to the "center"/commonness/ connectedness/"Other World" that is BEING in/surrounding/under/all/ over all that is. The Bubblings Up are the fruit of this consciousness.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com> To: George Holcombe <geowanda1@me.com>; Frank Cookingham via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com>; Tracy Longacre via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Sep 26, 2016 11:44 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tree of Life Reflection
Dear All,
The ability to reconcile religion and science is dependent on the ability to recognize that all “things” relate to a common centre. The current scientific paradigm does not recognise a common inside with a common outside. Language itself is the basis of “separateness” and the Universal Centre is the Void (what we called the Other World) which is not in the domain of language. Instead, the main unifying dimension that most (certainly not all) scientist use for the Universe is “The Big Bang”, that states that all “things” had a common beginning in Space and Time. It is a theory that can never ever be confirmed in experience. So the Universal and the Particular must both be true beyond space and time. If you are willing to follow this path then here is a link that will give you the basis of understanding. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Truth_Bias.html You will see he covers the Tree of Life.
And if you want to dig much deeper into the understanding then here is a second link that expands on the first through the understanding of Quantum theory, light and much more. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Unified_Theories.html
That is why I feel work on the Other World was perhaps the greatest insight and research we ever did. Along with the NRM and Profound Humanness we did a pretty good job of what it means to live with integrity and in relationship with G.O.D.
Grace & Peace,
Jack
On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:01, George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thanks, Ellie, your posts are helpful. My struggle at the moment is how little I know of all the infusion of scientific discoveries from the underpinnings of DNA to the Dark Holes and planets beyond planets, and how disconnected religion, institutional, spiritual and otherwise is from the world I think I’m living in. Your readings, some of which I’ve read, are encouraging. It would seem to me that religion has always grown out of its experience with the world. Floods, earthquakes, star bursts have led to understandings of a god who creates, punishes, saves, guides, etc., and to understandings of how to relate to each other, as those perceptions of reality shifted religion has had to reinterpret its stories both of the world and its relationships to each other. My understanding is at the heart of all religion is the love of neighbor as the only sane course, with lots of qualifications from time to time to allow hatred, distrust and separation in certain circumstances. I believe religion, spiritual, institutional and otherwise all have a role to play in our conscious lives, but what is it now? In talking to the millennials I know, who have the time to talk with an old geezer, they do not appear to have much of a grasp of the past and less interest in formal religion, spiritual or otherwise. Their focus seems to be almost exclusively on the here and now, especially as viewed through their digital lens. Some call this secularization. What does this mean for us going forward?
The horrible conditions of poverty and injustice in so many parts of the world from North Dakota to the poor even in the wealthiest nation in the world, along with climate change, gets such little play. Again our knowledge is minimal and our religious response fuzzy at best. The Pope has made some loud statements, but most religions remain somewhat muted. Large foundations like the Gates, Clinton’s, the work of the Carters catch the headlines, but by and large they have side stepped formal religion. The furious wars such as in Syria have produced minimal response from the religious dynamic. Is there a new religious dynamic afoot that we don’t see? (Remembering the RS-I illustration of the church working underground) And will it reconnect with our scientific search and the quest for justice, peace and love?
I do see folks here and there trying to forge a new reality. An attorney I know who is a woman, who has given herself to working on behalf of the immigrant families imprisoned on our Texas border and working to change laws using science and reason, those in North Dakota, and so many here and there. Is this the new form of religion? Can you know any of this and sit on the sidelines? So much to explore.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 23, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote:
Hi George,
Greetings from St. Louie! Hope you and Wanda are doing well.
Following up on your listserve email and what I just sent re science/theology... this is just an addendum...
Sunday, August 21, Carleton and I led Second Presbyterian Church's annual outdoor service (coordinated by our Earth Care Team) and picnic at a nearby park in the Turkish Pavilion which had 14 tables set up in a circle. The theme of the service was The Tree of Life. The tables were covered with green cloths with helium earth balloons attached. In the middle was a covered card table with an earth beach ball on it, flowers, the offering baskets, two toy red-eyed tree frogs, and 2 pots of sunflowers on the floor next to it. An Earth banner was at the designated "front" of the circle.
During the service, instead of a sermon, I did a Scripture/Arts Reflection, using a painting done by a friend and colleague of ours--a physician and member of First PC, Ferguson and resident of Ferguson. A picture of the painting was on an easel in the front of the pavilion by the Earth Banner and was also printed on the bulletin cover.
This is one way we try to weave together the science and theology themes at the local church level.. Last Sunday we studied PC(USA)'s "Affirmation of Creation". Over the years at the church from which we retired, I have done studies on evolution and Christianity and other "Big History/Picture" themes (not creationism).
Attached are copies of the bulletin and the Scripture/Arts Reflection.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
<21st Sunday in Ord Time 2016 - Aug. 21, 2016.docx><SCRIPTURE-ARTS, Second PC, Outdoor service, 8-21-16, LARGE PRINT.docx>
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What Isobel said. I also would love to hear more details about the Sabbath Retreat Day. Thanks. Sent from one of my iThingees, please excuse brevity and typos
On Oct 8, 2016, at 14:36, Isobel Bishop via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Ellen, Thankyou for sharing about you Retreat Day. It would be lovely if you could pass on to us what is the content or what resources you will use...such as poems, or readings or 'spaces' that you create during the day. I would offer the word curriculum,but I think this word is too heavy nowadays. What is the date of your Retreat Day Ellen? Greetings and peace,joy and love be yours. 🎉🎊 Isobel My profound gratitude to all who write on this list. It is a lifeline for me.
Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Oct 2016, at 10:35 pm, Richard Howie via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dear Ellie et al, This month I am co-leading a retreat SABBATH: A Day Apart, with the invitation to pray/meditate/contemplate our world and our part in it. The 'bubblings up' tend to need a bit of stop/look/listen! At the end of the month we are treating ourSelves to a road trip to Cincinnati to have a bit of time with the Lindblads. Love, Grace and Peace, Ellen
On Sep 27, 2016, at 2:43 PM, Ellie Stock via OE wrote:
Thanks for and building on your comments George and Jack and others (and I would look forward to hearing from others on this...
The way I look at it is that the positive "bubblings up" that Hawken refers to in his book Blessed Unrest are, in fact, the Church as Social Pioneer; and some parts of some institutional religions are part of that evolutionary process which develops, grows, and proliferates as it differentiates, diversifies, complexifies, and communes, all dimensions of which have a common center with all else that exists cosmologically and microscopically. Sometimes the "bubblings up" are covert, underground wells and streams and sometimes they are more like rivers and lakes and oceans and rainstorms. But all are connected and working together in the long run as the nourishing veins of the planet and earth cultures as they learn how to work and live and thrive together creatively and sustainably.
The dark side or involutionary efforts mentioned in the article highlighted by Jack are those that refuse to acknowledge and honor the reality and gifts of differentiation, diversity, complexity and communion and eventually (not necessarily without consequences) become dead ends or self-destruct. Human beings, in relationship to the entire Earth community, are making decisions that are part of both dimensions--the bubblings up and the dark side. They are life and death decisions. I'm trusting (Hope beyond hopes) that the bubblings up will prevail (oftentimes a messy, not without difficulty or struggle, process).
Prayer, meditation, contemplation, (using these as secular/religious terms) etc. brings consciousness to the "center"/commonness/ connectedness/"Other World" that is BEING in/surrounding/under/all/ over all that is. The Bubblings Up are the fruit of this consciousness.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com> To: George Holcombe <geowanda1@me.com>; Frank Cookingham via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com>; Tracy Longacre via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Mon, Sep 26, 2016 11:44 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Tree of Life Reflection
Dear All,
The ability to reconcile religion and science is dependent on the ability to recognize that all “things” relate to a common centre. The current scientific paradigm does not recognise a common inside with a common outside. Language itself is the basis of “separateness” and the Universal Centre is the Void (what we called the Other World) which is not in the domain of language. Instead, the main unifying dimension that most (certainly not all) scientist use for the Universe is “The Big Bang”, that states that all “things” had a common beginning in Space and Time. It is a theory that can never ever be confirmed in experience. So the Universal and the Particular must both be true beyond space and time. If you are willing to follow this path then here is a link that will give you the basis of understanding. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Truth_Bias.html You will see he covers the Tree of Life.
And if you want to dig much deeper into the understanding then here is a second link that expands on the first through the understanding of Quantum theory, light and much more. http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Unified_Theories.html
That is why I feel work on the Other World was perhaps the greatest insight and research we ever did. Along with the NRM and Profound Humanness we did a pretty good job of what it means to live with integrity and in relationship with G.O.D.
Grace & Peace,
Jack
On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:01, George Holcombe via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thanks, Ellie, your posts are helpful. My struggle at the moment is how little I know of all the infusion of scientific discoveries from the underpinnings of DNA to the Dark Holes and planets beyond planets, and how disconnected religion, institutional, spiritual and otherwise is from the world I think I’m living in. Your readings, some of which I’ve read, are encouraging. It would seem to me that religion has always grown out of its experience with the world. Floods, earthquakes, star bursts have led to understandings of a god who creates, punishes, saves, guides, etc., and to understandings of how to relate to each other, as those perceptions of reality shifted religion has had to reinterpret its stories both of the world and its relationships to each other. My understanding is at the heart of all religion is the love of neighbor as the only sane course, with lots of qualifications from time to time to allow hatred, distrust and separation in certain circumstances. I believe religion, spiritual, institutional and otherwise all have a role to play in our conscious lives, but what is it now? In talking to the millennials I know, who have the time to talk with an old geezer, they do not appear to have much of a grasp of the past and less interest in formal religion, spiritual or otherwise. Their focus seems to be almost exclusively on the here and now, especially as viewed through their digital lens. Some call this secularization. What does this mean for us going forward?
The horrible conditions of poverty and injustice in so many parts of the world from North Dakota to the poor even in the wealthiest nation in the world, along with climate change, gets such little play. Again our knowledge is minimal and our religious response fuzzy at best. The Pope has made some loud statements, but most religions remain somewhat muted. Large foundations like the Gates, Clinton’s, the work of the Carters catch the headlines, but by and large they have side stepped formal religion. The furious wars such as in Syria have produced minimal response from the religious dynamic. Is there a new religious dynamic afoot that we don’t see? (Remembering the RS-I illustration of the church working underground) And will it reconnect with our scientific search and the quest for justice, peace and love?
I do see folks here and there trying to forge a new reality. An attorney I know who is a woman, who has given herself to working on behalf of the immigrant families imprisoned on our Texas border and working to change laws using science and reason, those in North Dakota, and so many here and there. Is this the new form of religion? Can you know any of this and sit on the sidelines? So much to explore.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Sep 23, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote:
Hi George,
Greetings from St. Louie! Hope you and Wanda are doing well.
Following up on your listserve email and what I just sent re science/theology... this is just an addendum...
Sunday, August 21, Carleton and I led Second Presbyterian Church's annual outdoor service (coordinated by our Earth Care Team) and picnic at a nearby park in the Turkish Pavilion which had 14 tables set up in a circle. The theme of the service was The Tree of Life. The tables were covered with green cloths with helium earth balloons attached. In the middle was a covered card table with an earth beach ball on it, flowers, the offering baskets, two toy red-eyed tree frogs, and 2 pots of sunflowers on the floor next to it. An Earth banner was at the designated "front" of the circle.
During the service, instead of a sermon, I did a Scripture/Arts Reflection, using a painting done by a friend and colleague of ours--a physician and member of First PC, Ferguson and resident of Ferguson. A picture of the painting was on an easel in the front of the pavilion by the Earth Banner and was also printed on the bulletin cover.
This is one way we try to weave together the science and theology themes at the local church level.. Last Sunday we studied PC(USA)'s "Affirmation of Creation". Over the years at the church from which we retired, I have done studies on evolution and Christianity and other "Big History/Picture" themes (not creationism).
Attached are copies of the bulletin and the Scripture/Arts Reflection.
Ellie Stock elliestock@aol.com
<21st Sunday in Ord Time 2016 - Aug. 21, 2016.docx><SCRIPTURE-ARTS, Second PC, Outdoor service, 8-21-16, LARGE PRINT.docx>
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participants (6)
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Ellie Stock via Dialogue -
George Holcombe via Dialogue
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Isobel Bishop via Dialogue
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Jack Gilles via Dialogue
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Richard Howie via Dialogue
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Seth Longacre via Dialogue