Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] Trends in Theology
I like it … tipping points…aligning our energies with the 100 key tipping points…which if we grasp whole systems are connected in ways that we may not now or ever know. For example: microfinance is now active in every country on the planet; and independently many locations are discovering that in pathways which lead sustainably out of poverty – microfinance is linked to efforts in health and education – so integrated community development efforts are rising, and a tipping point is facilitating partnerships that reflect those linkages. We each have to choose where to act or we will all just watch the daily news and deepen our despair. Actions speak loudly. Go for a tipping point, really. Best regards, Sherwood From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Randy Williams via OE Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 9:29 AM To: George Holcombe Cc: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Trends in Theology George, One of the things you have described is the old perversion of "institutionalism," perhaps somewhat in new clothing. I think part of why this conversation continues to come up from time to time among us is the experience I expect most of us share of our love/hate relationship with the church. Joe's analogy that illuminated that realization for many of us was, "the church is a whore but she's my mother." That still kind of holds it for me. By the way, I always thought that analogy originated with Joe, but I recently found it in the early writings of Dorothy Day, founder of the Catholic workers movement. In her day she was a pretty feisty, salty old sister (not nun) who was later sainted by the church. We need a few more like her today. Randy Sent from my iPad On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: There seems to be several streams around the same discussion (I’m guessing). It would be wonderful if we could gather in the collegium room at 3444 and have a go, or have Joe give us a lecture, but I suppose this is as close as it gets in this digital age. As I remember it, we used the word church in RS-1 to describe a dynamic, that part between no longer and not yet where you bump into people laying their life down to create the new future. Our institutional churches have always had a struggle with that as have we all, and both have used the symbols and story surrounding our understanding of that dynamic for all sorts of purposes. Some think we failed (came apart at the center), others think we’ve had some conditional success, but then that happens when we missed the Bonhoeffer paper. I enjoy Borg, Crossan, and the research of late into early Christianity (try getting through Crossan’s The Birth of Christianity), especially Borg’s description of Jesus as a Jewish mystic in the prophetic tradition, pushing the Judaism of his day into the future, refusing the domination of Rome. Our local Presbyterian Seminary professors seem to have some criticisms of Borg, though I don’t understand them at all. Richard Rohr and others have done an impressive job of pulling all this through our daily lives in some creative ways. But all that aside, the suffering (in all its forms) of the world seems to lose its footing in all of this. Religions and adherents (or non adherents) attempting to justify their various perspectives, which leaks over into the political and economic discussions (interesting how their efforts at justification of their position follows much the same lines as religions), put the majority of their efforts into keeping afloat, while pointing to their minimal efforts to address the suffering of the world, as their raison d’être. With a few notable exceptions, most local churches (denominations, etc.) I know anything about spend about 80-90% on themselves and a little for some social/health projects, not unlike Political and other groups. Much of this has been known for awhile and more is coming to surface, which is growing the sense of distrust and disgust with institutions, but does not create an atmosphere for positive change. But amidst all of this the world is suffering. Climate change is having dramatic effects, wealth inequality hardly describes what the poor are experiencing, corporations contribute as much to the destruction of the environment as to wealth creation, wars are endless. Most if not all of us have intimate experience with all of this. The old hope if things get bad enough, good will happen doesn’t seem to be working. It may be that we should shift our conversation from the good or bad old days to what we see are the tipping points and what we’re trying where we are to make the future happen. In this digital age, this may be one new/old way to create the new future. George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I do not go to a church. I remember the awe of high ritual. In the scotch Presbyterian and Eppiscopal Cathedral in my upbringing. The praying and preaching were not much. The music held it all. The daily office was a recovery of the awe...every day. RS1 sunk in after I learned to meditate and function in the world of spirit. Before meditation life was a regular series of burnouts.By meditation I dont mean sitting in silence, although I do. I mean living mindfully. Social pioneering and the new church is pure spirit. The Divine and We are One. How to catalyze this experience in the lives of people incommunities is foundational to sustainable changes. Sometimes OE/ICA got it right. Sometimes it doesn't. On Sunday, March 22, 2015, Karenbueno via OE < <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Thank you, Dharma! I continue to attend my local United Methodist Church. I find there people who are wanting to serve others, who relate to the Christian symbols, and who give of their time, talent, and finances to the work of the Christian church. I may not agree with all of the theology I hear, but I know that this is an agency that is doing good work in the world. I am also active in the broader work of the United Methodist Women, who give generously for leadership training of women, and for mission projects around the world, for health care, feeding programs, child care, etc. I sometimes even hear sermons with great authenticity! :-) <https://s.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/resources/core/images/smile.png> Karen Bueno -----Original Message----- From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Marilyn Crocker <marilyncrocker@juno.com>; 'Mary Kurian D'Souza' <marykdsouza@gmail.com>; oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sun, Mar 22, 2015 9:05 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology Dear all, What a great opportunity it is to be able to talk about issues lie this with a community spread around the globe. My take on these issues - the only reason to go to church, temple, mosque etc is to be in dialogue with the symbol systems of the world that help us make sense of living. Dialogue goes both ways so we either get something from that experience or we give it new meaning. This is one avenue for social change. Of course, it is possible that the meaning building dynamic has move onto to other institutions. In which case, that's where we too would want to be. Although a life of service has an impact on those around us, symbols have their own unique role. When these are not rejuvenated, society develops monstrosities like ISIS, religious fanatics from the various faiths of the world etc. So the question for me is - what are the symbols in our life and how do we let our love for life speak through them. Dharma On Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:02 AM, Marilyn Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Hi Dear Mary, I’m intrigued by your comment that “For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA.” For me our “methods of participation” were all about the life dynamics undergirding RSI, but couched in secular terms describing “the way life is” (TWLI) as we used to say – or limits, possibility, freedom, corporate resolve/action – or the consult method of baseline situation, vision, contradictions, proposals, tactics and implementaries. My sense of that alignment of TWLI and our methods allowed me to keep serving in villages, local communities, schools, businesses, often at great personal cost. I experienced deep and profound spiritual interpersonal connections in these interactions that allowed me to say, “I am being my personal mission or calling.” Now at 72, in retirement and needing to be a 24/7 caregiver for my 87 year old husband who has progressive cognitive impairment, I still depend upon the fundamental understandings RSI gifted to me: All is Good, the Past is Approved, All that I Am is Received, and the Future is Open – filled with radical Possibility. I respect your perspective and your hope to awaken in your children depth and mystery. My experience is that although Christian liturgy and mindfulness practices help some, the raw living a life of selfless care is the best entry point. With love and respect, Marilyn From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Mary Kurian D'Souza via OE Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:43 PM To: Rod Rippel Cc: Colleague Dialogue; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology Rod, Thank you for raising this question. I have noticed that the recent celebrations of completed lives of our colleagues from the order used less of the rituals and more of poetry. I myself do not go to Church and am suffocated by sermons etc. that are not authentic. Spirituality has become more alive. Am searching for a way to deepen this experience and to communicate to my children the depth and mystery that open up in life through practices such as through meditation and in being mindful. For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA With respect, Mary On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Rod Rippel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Almost to a person colleagues of the Spirit Movement and the Order never referred to God or used the word 'God' very much when talking about their lives or life decisions. Instead they simply said, "I had RS-1 in...." or they would ask, "When was your RS-1?" God-talk had already moved beyond theism to Event and poetry, and personal myth. What was your experience? Rod R _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net -- Judi White <http://circlefireflydance.blogspot.com/> http://circlefireflydance.blogspot.com http://porchtimechats.blogspot.com <http://porchtimechats.blogspot.com/> _______________________________________________ OE mailing list <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net
Dear All, I agree that there are so many “good” things happening at the local levels all over. That is how history will change. I get frustrated at the continuing emphasis on military solutions for ISIS and Iraq’s mess. No one is “training” ISIS! They have a cause and a vision and are willing to die for it. That said, I have reached the conclusion that we are in for a mighty correction via the climate change. There will be unavoidable suffering all over the world, and additional conflicts (especially water). I never was a Casandra on the climate, but have become so. I feel that perhaps in our (old folks!) lifetime we will see its front end affects. I guess all we can really do is continue to work where we are, link with others and do a whole lot of praying. Watching 60 Minutes last night I saw the absolute blindness to the decreasing water tables all over the world. This will take decades of good rain to replenish. Everyone knows it who are dealing with the CA water crisis, but still they drill deeper and deeper. Madness! Jack
On Jun 1, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Sherwood Shankland via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I like it … tipping points…aligning our energies with the 100 key tipping points…which if we grasp whole systems are connected in ways that we may not now or ever know. For example: microfinance is now active in every country on the planet; and independently many locations are discovering that in pathways which lead sustainably out of poverty – microfinance is linked to efforts in health and education – so integrated community development efforts are rising, and a tipping point is facilitating partnerships that reflect those linkages. We each have to choose where to act or we will all just watch the daily news and deepen our despair. Actions speak loudly. Go for a tipping point, really. Best regards, Sherwood <> From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of Randy Williams via OE Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 9:29 AM To: George Holcombe Cc: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Trends in Theology
George,
One of the things you have described is the old perversion of "institutionalism," perhaps somewhat in new clothing. I think part of why this conversation continues to come up from time to time among us is the experience I expect most of us share of our love/hate relationship with the church. Joe's analogy that illuminated that realization for many of us was, "the church is a whore but she's my mother." That still kind of holds it for me.
By the way, I always thought that analogy originated with Joe, but I recently found it in the early writings of Dorothy Day, founder of the Catholic workers movement. In her day she was a pretty feisty, salty old sister (not nun) who was later sainted by the church. We need a few more like her today.
Randy
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
There seems to be several streams around the same discussion (I’m guessing). It would be wonderful if we could gather in the collegium room at 3444 and have a go, or have Joe give us a lecture, but I suppose this is as close as it gets in this digital age.
As I remember it, we used the word church in RS-1 to describe a dynamic, that part between no longer and not yet where you bump into people laying their life down to create the new future. Our institutional churches have always had a struggle with that as have we all, and both have used the symbols and story surrounding our understanding of that dynamic for all sorts of purposes.
Some think we failed (came apart at the center), others think we’ve had some conditional success, but then that happens when we missed the Bonhoeffer paper.
I enjoy Borg, Crossan, and the research of late into early Christianity (try getting through Crossan’s The Birth of Christianity), especially Borg’s description of Jesus as a Jewish mystic in the prophetic tradition, pushing the Judaism of his day into the future, refusing the domination of Rome. Our local Presbyterian Seminary professors seem to have some criticisms of Borg, though I don’t understand them at all. Richard Rohr and others have done an impressive job of pulling all this through our daily lives in some creative ways.
But all that aside, the suffering (in all its forms) of the world seems to lose its footing in all of this. Religions and adherents (or non adherents) attempting to justify their various perspectives, which leaks over into the political and economic discussions (interesting how their efforts at justification of their position follows much the same lines as religions), put the majority of their efforts into keeping afloat, while pointing to their minimal efforts to address the suffering of the world, as their raison d’être. With a few notable exceptions, most local churches (denominations, etc.) I know anything about spend about 80-90% on themselves and a little for some social/health projects, not unlike Political and other groups. Much of this has been known for awhile and more is coming to surface, which is growing the sense of distrust and disgust with institutions, but does not create an atmosphere for positive change.
But amidst all of this the world is suffering. Climate change is having dramatic effects, wealth inequality hardly describes what the poor are experiencing, corporations contribute as much to the destruction of the environment as to wealth creation, wars are endless. Most if not all of us have intimate experience with all of this. The old hope if things get bad enough, good will happen doesn’t seem to be working. It may be that we should shift our conversation from the good or bad old days to what we see are the tipping points and what we’re trying where we are to make the future happen. In this digital age, this may be one new/old way to create the new future.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com <mailto:geowanda1@me.com>
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I do not go to a church. I remember the awe of high ritual. In the scotch Presbyterian and Eppiscopal Cathedral in my upbringing. The praying and preaching were not much. The music held it all. The daily office was a recovery of the awe...every day. RS1 sunk in after I learned to meditate and function in the world of spirit. Before meditation life was a regular series of burnouts.By meditation I dont mean sitting in silence, although I do. I mean living mindfully. Social pioneering and the new church is pure spirit. The Divine and We are One. How to catalyze this experience in the lives of people incommunities is foundational to sustainable changes. Sometimes OE/ICA got it right. Sometimes it doesn't.
On Sunday, March 22, 2015, Karenbueno via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Thank you, Dharma! I continue to attend my local United Methodist Church. I find there people who are wanting to serve others, who relate to the Christian symbols, and who give of their time, talent, and finances to the work of the Christian church. I may not agree with all of the theology I hear, but I know that this is an agency that is doing good work in the world.
I am also active in the broader work of the United Methodist Women, who give generously for leadership training of women, and for mission projects around the world, for health care, feeding programs, child care, etc.
I sometimes even hear sermons with great authenticity!
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> To: Marilyn Crocker <marilyncrocker@juno.com <mailto:marilyncrocker@juno.com>>; 'Mary Kurian D'Souza' <marykdsouza@gmail.com <mailto:marykdsouza@gmail.com>>; oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Sent: Sun, Mar 22, 2015 9:05 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Dear all,
What a great opportunity it is to be able to talk about issues lie this with a community spread around the globe. My take on these issues - the only reason to go to church, temple, mosque etc is to be in dialogue with the symbol systems of the world that help us make sense of living. Dialogue goes both ways so we either get something from that experience or we give it new meaning. This is one avenue for social change. Of course, it is possible that the meaning building dynamic has move onto to other institutions. In which case, that's where we too would want to be.
Although a life of service has an impact on those around us, symbols have their own unique role. When these are not rejuvenated, society develops monstrosities like ISIS, religious fanatics from the various faiths of the world etc.
So the question for me is - what are the symbols in our life and how do we let our love for life speak through them.
Dharma
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:02 AM, Marilyn Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Hi Dear Mary,
I’m intrigued by your comment that “For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA.”
For me our “methods of participation” were all about the life dynamics undergirding RSI, but couched in secular terms describing “the way life is” (TWLI) as we used to say – or limits, possibility, freedom, corporate resolve/action – or the consult method of baseline situation, vision, contradictions, proposals, tactics and implementaries.
My sense of that alignment of TWLI and our methods allowed me to keep serving in villages, local communities, schools, businesses, often at great personal cost. I experienced deep and profound spiritual interpersonal connections in these interactions that allowed me to say, “I am being my personal mission or calling.”
Now at 72, in retirement and needing to be a 24/7 caregiver for my 87 year old husband who has progressive cognitive impairment, I still depend upon the fundamental understandings RSI gifted to me: All is Good, the Past is Approved, All that I Am is Received, and the Future is Open – filled with radical Possibility.
I respect your perspective and your hope to awaken in your children depth and mystery. My experience is that although Christian liturgy and mindfulness practices help some, the raw living a life of selfless care is the best entry point.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <mailto:[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]> On Behalf Of Mary Kurian D'Souza via OE Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:43 PM To: Rod Rippel Cc: Colleague Dialogue; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Rod,
Thank you for raising this question. I have noticed that the recent celebrations of completed lives of our colleagues from the order used less of the rituals and more of poetry.
I myself do not go to Church and am suffocated by sermons etc. that are not authentic.
Spirituality has become more alive. Am searching for a way to deepen this experience and to communicate to my children the depth and mystery that open up in life through practices such as through meditation and in being mindful.
For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA
With respect, Mary
On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Rod Rippel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Almost to a person colleagues of the Spirit Movement and the Order never referred to God or used the word 'God' very much when talking about their lives or life decisions. Instead they simply said, "I had RS-1 in...." or they would ask, "When was your RS-1?" God-talk had already moved beyond theism to Event and poetry, and personal myth.
What was your experience? Rod R
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Right on Jack. It’s interesting that ISIS didn’t have to manufacture or create their weapons or invent their finances from the ground up, they simply used what was already around and coming in. Turning off the faucet seems to be the trick, but it has implications for the original suppliers, too. As you say, the water issue, which we currently have a lot of around here, is getting broad attention. The acquafers (underground water) in Texas are still not getting recharged. From what I’m told, buildings, the parking lots, removal of plants that help wick water down to acquafers and other surface alterations are preventing available water from getting to the aquifers. So lots of rain might not do it. Changes in business models and politics may be a big part of the tipping points. (Someone with more knowledge chime in here). I like Sherwood’s comment. Most of what we have to go on is what comes through the corporate media and the macro lenses. The “microfinances” don’t get much attention. Inventions and changes at the local level remain fairly hidden. You might want to watch what is happening in Denton, Tx. following the Texas legislature overruling their ban on fracking, if you can find it. Groups from all over Texas, I understand, are joining together now to oppose fracking. I also understand that education of girls is on the rise across the world as well as increases in women holding political positions. Now, the question comes, what do we as a community or individuals do? George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com "Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Jun 1, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Jack Gilles <jackcgilles@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All,
I agree that there are so many “good” things happening at the local levels all over. That is how history will change. I get frustrated at the continuing emphasis on military solutions for ISIS and Iraq’s mess. No one is “training” ISIS! They have a cause and a vision and are willing to die for it.
That said, I have reached the conclusion that we are in for a mighty correction via the climate change. There will be unavoidable suffering all over the world, and additional conflicts (especially water). I never was a Casandra on the climate, but have become so. I feel that perhaps in our (old folks!) lifetime we will see its front end affects. I guess all we can really do is continue to work where we are, link with others and do a whole lot of praying.
Watching 60 Minutes last night I saw the absolute blindness to the decreasing water tables all over the world. This will take decades of good rain to replenish. Everyone knows it who are dealing with the CA water crisis, but still they drill deeper and deeper. Madness!
Jack
On Jun 1, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Sherwood Shankland via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I like it … tipping points…aligning our energies with the 100 key tipping points…which if we grasp whole systems are connected in ways that we may not now or ever know. For example: microfinance is now active in every country on the planet; and independently many locations are discovering that in pathways which lead sustainably out of poverty – microfinance is linked to efforts in health and education – so integrated community development efforts are rising, and a tipping point is facilitating partnerships that reflect those linkages. We each have to choose where to act or we will all just watch the daily news and deepen our despair. Actions speak loudly. Go for a tipping point, really. Best regards, Sherwood <> From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>] On Behalf Of Randy Williams via OE Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 9:29 AM To: George Holcombe Cc: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Trends in Theology
George,
One of the things you have described is the old perversion of "institutionalism," perhaps somewhat in new clothing. I think part of why this conversation continues to come up from time to time among us is the experience I expect most of us share of our love/hate relationship with the church. Joe's analogy that illuminated that realization for many of us was, "the church is a whore but she's my mother." That still kind of holds it for me.
By the way, I always thought that analogy originated with Joe, but I recently found it in the early writings of Dorothy Day, founder of the Catholic workers movement. In her day she was a pretty feisty, salty old sister (not nun) who was later sainted by the church. We need a few more like her today.
Randy
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
There seems to be several streams around the same discussion (I’m guessing). It would be wonderful if we could gather in the collegium room at 3444 and have a go, or have Joe give us a lecture, but I suppose this is as close as it gets in this digital age.
As I remember it, we used the word church in RS-1 to describe a dynamic, that part between no longer and not yet where you bump into people laying their life down to create the new future. Our institutional churches have always had a struggle with that as have we all, and both have used the symbols and story surrounding our understanding of that dynamic for all sorts of purposes.
Some think we failed (came apart at the center), others think we’ve had some conditional success, but then that happens when we missed the Bonhoeffer paper.
I enjoy Borg, Crossan, and the research of late into early Christianity (try getting through Crossan’s The Birth of Christianity), especially Borg’s description of Jesus as a Jewish mystic in the prophetic tradition, pushing the Judaism of his day into the future, refusing the domination of Rome. Our local Presbyterian Seminary professors seem to have some criticisms of Borg, though I don’t understand them at all. Richard Rohr and others have done an impressive job of pulling all this through our daily lives in some creative ways.
But all that aside, the suffering (in all its forms) of the world seems to lose its footing in all of this. Religions and adherents (or non adherents) attempting to justify their various perspectives, which leaks over into the political and economic discussions (interesting how their efforts at justification of their position follows much the same lines as religions), put the majority of their efforts into keeping afloat, while pointing to their minimal efforts to address the suffering of the world, as their raison d’être. With a few notable exceptions, most local churches (denominations, etc.) I know anything about spend about 80-90% on themselves and a little for some social/health projects, not unlike Political and other groups. Much of this has been known for awhile and more is coming to surface, which is growing the sense of distrust and disgust with institutions, but does not create an atmosphere for positive change.
But amidst all of this the world is suffering. Climate change is having dramatic effects, wealth inequality hardly describes what the poor are experiencing, corporations contribute as much to the destruction of the environment as to wealth creation, wars are endless. Most if not all of us have intimate experience with all of this. The old hope if things get bad enough, good will happen doesn’t seem to be working. It may be that we should shift our conversation from the good or bad old days to what we see are the tipping points and what we’re trying where we are to make the future happen. In this digital age, this may be one new/old way to create the new future.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com <mailto:geowanda1@me.com>
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
I do not go to a church. I remember the awe of high ritual. In the scotch Presbyterian and Eppiscopal Cathedral in my upbringing. The praying and preaching were not much. The music held it all. The daily office was a recovery of the awe...every day. RS1 sunk in after I learned to meditate and function in the world of spirit. Before meditation life was a regular series of burnouts.By meditation I dont mean sitting in silence, although I do. I mean living mindfully. Social pioneering and the new church is pure spirit. The Divine and We are One. How to catalyze this experience in the lives of people incommunities is foundational to sustainable changes. Sometimes OE/ICA got it right. Sometimes it doesn't.
On Sunday, March 22, 2015, Karenbueno via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Thank you, Dharma! I continue to attend my local United Methodist Church. I find there people who are wanting to serve others, who relate to the Christian symbols, and who give of their time, talent, and finances to the work of the Christian church. I may not agree with all of the theology I hear, but I know that this is an agency that is doing good work in the world.
I am also active in the broader work of the United Methodist Women, who give generously for leadership training of women, and for mission projects around the world, for health care, feeding programs, child care, etc.
I sometimes even hear sermons with great authenticity!
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> To: Marilyn Crocker <marilyncrocker@juno.com <mailto:marilyncrocker@juno.com>>; 'Mary Kurian D'Souza' <marykdsouza@gmail.com <mailto:marykdsouza@gmail.com>>; oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> Sent: Sun, Mar 22, 2015 9:05 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Dear all,
What a great opportunity it is to be able to talk about issues lie this with a community spread around the globe. My take on these issues - the only reason to go to church, temple, mosque etc is to be in dialogue with the symbol systems of the world that help us make sense of living. Dialogue goes both ways so we either get something from that experience or we give it new meaning. This is one avenue for social change. Of course, it is possible that the meaning building dynamic has move onto to other institutions. In which case, that's where we too would want to be.
Although a life of service has an impact on those around us, symbols have their own unique role. When these are not rejuvenated, society develops monstrosities like ISIS, religious fanatics from the various faiths of the world etc.
So the question for me is - what are the symbols in our life and how do we let our love for life speak through them.
Dharma
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:02 AM, Marilyn Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Hi Dear Mary,
I’m intrigued by your comment that “For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA.”
For me our “methods of participation” were all about the life dynamics undergirding RSI, but couched in secular terms describing “the way life is” (TWLI) as we used to say – or limits, possibility, freedom, corporate resolve/action – or the consult method of baseline situation, vision, contradictions, proposals, tactics and implementaries.
My sense of that alignment of TWLI and our methods allowed me to keep serving in villages, local communities, schools, businesses, often at great personal cost. I experienced deep and profound spiritual interpersonal connections in these interactions that allowed me to say, “I am being my personal mission or calling.”
Now at 72, in retirement and needing to be a 24/7 caregiver for my 87 year old husband who has progressive cognitive impairment, I still depend upon the fundamental understandings RSI gifted to me: All is Good, the Past is Approved, All that I Am is Received, and the Future is Open – filled with radical Possibility.
I respect your perspective and your hope to awaken in your children depth and mystery. My experience is that although Christian liturgy and mindfulness practices help some, the raw living a life of selfless care is the best entry point.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <mailto:[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]> On Behalf Of Mary Kurian D'Souza via OE Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:43 PM To: Rod Rippel Cc: Colleague Dialogue; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Rod,
Thank you for raising this question. I have noticed that the recent celebrations of completed lives of our colleagues from the order used less of the rituals and more of poetry.
I myself do not go to Church and am suffocated by sermons etc. that are not authentic.
Spirituality has become more alive. Am searching for a way to deepen this experience and to communicate to my children the depth and mystery that open up in life through practices such as through meditation and in being mindful.
For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA
With respect, Mary
On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Rod Rippel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Almost to a person colleagues of the Spirit Movement and the Order never referred to God or used the word 'God' very much when talking about their lives or life decisions. Instead they simply said, "I had RS-1 in...." or they would ask, "When was your RS-1?" God-talk had already moved beyond theism to Event and poetry, and personal myth.
What was your experience? Rod R
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--
Judi White http://circlefireflydance.blogspot.com <http://circlefireflydance.blogspot.com/> http://porchtimechats.blogspot.com <http://porchtimechats.blogspot.com/>
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_______________________________________________ OE mailing list OE@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net>_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net>
Hi Jack and network of care: I haven't entered into the Dialogue conversation for some time but could not resist joining in the latest posts around environmental change and grass roots efforts to make a difference... I couldn't help but join in the conversation on what's going on in the world that's not in the news..The attached article is current take on the grassroots movements going on across the planet that we don't hear much about. A few yrs back( 10 or so) The foundational piece on this was traced in the Book" Blessed Unrest) that traced the movements of change going on. Here's a more recent take that suggests this is still going on in many forms, everywhere... Top 10: Grassroots Movements that are Taking on the World Permaculture is #9 http://shift-magazine.org/magazine/top-10-grassroots-movements-that-are-taki... "Waiting for political change to come about once every few years at election time is not only frustrating, but is an almost sure-fire way of ensuring that the changes you really want don’t get delivered within the time frames that are necessary. If we really want to see change, then to paraphrase Gandhi, we have to be the change. Grassroots movements offer up a multitude of creative and inspiring ways for ordinary folks to get involved in changemaking, both from the bottom up, and as a conversation space through which we can come to terms with our own power to make a difference. Although grassroots efforts may not be mirrored in party politics, the effects resonate at the broadest possible level, shaping resilient futures and empowering communities." Last weekend we participated in a Permaculture Convergence gathering in South Western Colorado with around 200 permies...Lots of young people lots of learning around healthy food systems and community building all over Colorado.. One of the senior teachers stopped me with this question: " where will you be when it all crashes"?....The expectations from this community is that the Change/Tipping point is happening now and it's critical to be in resilient communities where healthy living systems are available for others to learn from to accelerate the convergence.. Be well, Salvatore On Jun 1, 2015, at 10:44 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue wrote:
Dear All,
I agree that there are so many “good” things happening at the local levels all over. That is how history will change. I get frustrated at the continuing emphasis on military solutions for ISIS and Iraq’s mess. No one is “training” ISIS! They have a cause and a vision and are willing to die for it.
That said, I have reached the conclusion that we are in for a mighty correction via the climate change. There will be unavoidable suffering all over the world, and additional conflicts (especially water). I never was a Casandra on the climate, but have become so. I feel that perhaps in our (old folks!) lifetime we will see its front end affects. I guess all we can really do is continue to work where we are, link with others and do a whole lot of praying.
Watching 60 Minutes last night I saw the absolute blindness to the decreasing water tables all over the world. This will take decades of good rain to replenish. Everyone knows it who are dealing with the CA water crisis, but still they drill deeper and deeper. Madness!
Jack
On Jun 1, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Sherwood Shankland via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I like it … tipping points…aligning our energies with the 100 key tipping points…which if we grasp whole systems are connected in ways that we may not now or ever know. For example: microfinance is now active in every country on the planet; and independently many locations are discovering that in pathways which lead sustainably out of poverty – microfinance is linked to efforts in health and education – so integrated community development efforts are rising, and a tipping point is facilitating partnerships that reflect those linkages. We each have to choose where to act or we will all just watch the daily news and deepen our despair. Actions speak loudly. Go for a tipping point, really. Best regards, Sherwood
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Randy Williams via OE Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 9:29 AM To: George Holcombe Cc: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Trends in Theology
George,
One of the things you have described is the old perversion of "institutionalism," perhaps somewhat in new clothing. I think part of why this conversation continues to come up from time to time among us is the experience I expect most of us share of our love/hate relationship with the church. Joe's analogy that illuminated that realization for many of us was, "the church is a whore but she's my mother." That still kind of holds it for me.
By the way, I always thought that analogy originated with Joe, but I recently found it in the early writings of Dorothy Day, founder of the Catholic workers movement. In her day she was a pretty feisty, salty old sister (not nun) who was later sainted by the church. We need a few more like her today.
Randy
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, George Holcombe via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
There seems to be several streams around the same discussion (I’m guessing). It would be wonderful if we could gather in the collegium room at 3444 and have a go, or have Joe give us a lecture, but I suppose this is as close as it gets in this digital age.
As I remember it, we used the word church in RS-1 to describe a dynamic, that part between no longer and not yet where you bump into people laying their life down to create the new future. Our institutional churches have always had a struggle with that as have we all, and both have used the symbols and story surrounding our understanding of that dynamic for all sorts of purposes.
Some think we failed (came apart at the center), others think we’ve had some conditional success, but then that happens when we missed the Bonhoeffer paper.
I enjoy Borg, Crossan, and the research of late into early Christianity (try getting through Crossan’s The Birth of Christianity), especially Borg’s description of Jesus as a Jewish mystic in the prophetic tradition, pushing the Judaism of his day into the future, refusing the domination of Rome. Our local Presbyterian Seminary professors seem to have some criticisms of Borg, though I don’t understand them at all. Richard Rohr and others have done an impressive job of pulling all this through our daily lives in some creative ways.
But all that aside, the suffering (in all its forms) of the world seems to lose its footing in all of this. Religions and adherents (or non adherents) attempting to justify their various perspectives, which leaks over into the political and economic discussions (interesting how their efforts at justification of their position follows much the same lines as religions), put the majority of their efforts into keeping afloat, while pointing to their minimal efforts to address the suffering of the world, as their raison d’être. With a few notable exceptions, most local churches (denominations, etc.) I know anything about spend about 80-90% on themselves and a little for some social/health projects, not unlike Political and other groups. Much of this has been known for awhile and more is coming to surface, which is growing the sense of distrust and disgust with institutions, but does not create an atmosphere for positive change.
But amidst all of this the world is suffering. Climate change is having dramatic effects, wealth inequality hardly describes what the poor are experiencing, corporations contribute as much to the destruction of the environment as to wealth creation, wars are endless. Most if not all of us have intimate experience with all of this. The old hope if things get bad enough, good will happen doesn’t seem to be working. It may be that we should shift our conversation from the good or bad old days to what we see are the tipping points and what we’re trying where we are to make the future happen. In this digital age, this may be one new/old way to create the new future.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 geowanda1@me.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Judi White via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I do not go to a church. I remember the awe of high ritual. In the scotch Presbyterian and Eppiscopal Cathedral in my upbringing. The praying and preaching were not much. The music held it all. The daily office was a recovery of the awe...every day. RS1 sunk in after I learned to meditate and function in the world of spirit. Before meditation life was a regular series of burnouts.By meditation I dont mean sitting in silence, although I do. I mean living mindfully. Social pioneering and the new church is pure spirit. The Divine and We are One. How to catalyze this experience in the lives of people incommunities is foundational to sustainable changes. Sometimes OE/ICA got it right. Sometimes it doesn't.
On Sunday, March 22, 2015, Karenbueno via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thank you, Dharma! I continue to attend my local United Methodist Church. I find there people who are wanting to serve others, who relate to the Christian symbols, and who give of their time, talent, and finances to the work of the Christian church. I may not agree with all of the theology I hear, but I know that this is an agency that is doing good work in the world.
I am also active in the broader work of the United Methodist Women, who give generously for leadership training of women, and for mission projects around the world, for health care, feeding programs, child care, etc.
I sometimes even hear sermons with great authenticity!
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Marilyn Crocker <marilyncrocker@juno.com>; 'Mary Kurian D'Souza' <marykdsouza@gmail.com>; oe <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sun, Mar 22, 2015 9:05 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Dear all,
What a great opportunity it is to be able to talk about issues lie this with a community spread around the globe. My take on these issues - the only reason to go to church, temple, mosque etc is to be in dialogue with the symbol systems of the world that help us make sense of living. Dialogue goes both ways so we either get something from that experience or we give it new meaning. This is one avenue for social change. Of course, it is possible that the meaning building dynamic has move onto to other institutions. In which case, that's where we too would want to be.
Although a life of service has an impact on those around us, symbols have their own unique role. When these are not rejuvenated, society develops monstrosities like ISIS, religious fanatics from the various faiths of the world etc.
So the question for me is - what are the symbols in our life and how do we let our love for life speak through them.
Dharma
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:02 AM, Marilyn Crocker via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi Dear Mary,
I’m intrigued by your comment that “For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA.”
For me our “methods of participation” were all about the life dynamics undergirding RSI, but couched in secular terms describing “the way life is” (TWLI) as we used to say – or limits, possibility, freedom, corporate resolve/action – or the consult method of baseline situation, vision, contradictions, proposals, tactics and implementaries.
My sense of that alignment of TWLI and our methods allowed me to keep serving in villages, local communities, schools, businesses, often at great personal cost. I experienced deep and profound spiritual interpersonal connections in these interactions that allowed me to say, “I am being my personal mission or calling.”
Now at 72, in retirement and needing to be a 24/7 caregiver for my 87 year old husband who has progressive cognitive impairment, I still depend upon the fundamental understandings RSI gifted to me: All is Good, the Past is Approved, All that I Am is Received, and the Future is Open – filled with radical Possibility.
I respect your perspective and your hope to awaken in your children depth and mystery. My experience is that although Christian liturgy and mindfulness practices help some, the raw living a life of selfless care is the best entry point.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
From: OE [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Mary Kurian D'Souza via OE Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:43 PM To: Rod Rippel Cc: Colleague Dialogue; oe@lists.wedgeblade.net Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Rod,
Thank you for raising this question. I have noticed that the recent celebrations of completed lives of our colleagues from the order used less of the rituals and more of poetry.
I myself do not go to Church and am suffocated by sermons etc. that are not authentic.
Spirituality has become more alive. Am searching for a way to deepen this experience and to communicate to my children the depth and mystery that open up in life through practices such as through meditation and in being mindful.
For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA
With respect, Mary
On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Rod Rippel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Almost to a person colleagues of the Spirit Movement and the Order never referred to God or used the word 'God' very much when talking about their lives or life decisions. Instead they simply said, "I had RS-1 in...." or they would ask, "When was your RS-1?" God-talk had already moved beyond theism to Event and poetry, and personal myth.
What was your experience? Rod R
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--
Judi White http://circlefireflydance.blogspot.com http://porchtimechats.blogspot.com
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Just to input a little, here's an incredible YouTube video of Ricardo Semler from Brazil talking about the issue and what he's doing to address it -- in companies and schools and NGO's. It's worth considering in this context. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxf9wviXyc John At 10:44 AM 6/1/2015, Jack Gilles via Dialogue wrote:
Dear All,
I agree that there are so many âgoodâ things happening at the local levels all over. That is how history will change. I get frustrated at the continuing emphasis on military solutions for ISIS and Iraqâs mess. No one is âtrainingâ ISIS! They have a cause and a vision and are willing to die for it.
That said, I have reached the conclusion that we are in for a mighty correction via the climate change. There will be unavoidable suffering all over the world, and additional conflicts (especially water). I never was a Casandra on the climate, but have become so. I feel that perhaps in our (old folks!) lifetime we will see its front end affects. I guess all we can really do is continue to work where we are, link with others and do a whole lot of praying.
Watching 60 Minutes last night I saw the absolute blindness to the decreasing water tables all over the world. This will take decades of good rain to replenish. Everyone knows it who are dealing with the CA water crisis, but still they drill deeper and deeper. Madness!
Jack
On Jun 1, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Sherwood Shankland via Dialogue <<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I like it tipping points aligning our energies with the 100 key tipping points which if we grasp whole systems are connected in ways that we may not now or ever know. For example: microfinance is now active in every country on the planet; and independently many locations are discovering that in pathways which lead sustainably out of poverty microfinance is linked to efforts in health and education â so integrated community development efforts are rising, and a tipping point is facilitating partnerships that reflect those linkages. We each have to choose where to act or we will all just watch the daily news and deepen our despair. Actions speak loudly. Go for a tipping point, really. Best regards, Sherwood
From: OE [<mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net>mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Randy Williams via OE Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 9:29 AM To: George Holcombe Cc: ICA/OE List Serves; ICA/OE List Serves Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Trends in Theology
George,
One of the things you have described is the old perversion of "institutionalism," perhaps somewhat in new clothing. I think part of why this conversation continues to come up from time to time among us is the experience I expect most of us share of our love/hate relationship with the church. Joe's analogy that illuminated that realization for many of us was, "the church is a whore but she's my mother." That still kind of holds it for me.
By the way, I always thought that analogy originated with Joe, but I recently found it in the early writings of Dorothy Day, founder of the Catholic workers movement. In her day she was a pretty feisty, salty old sister (not nun) who was later sainted by the church. We need a few more like her today.
Randy
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, George Holcombe via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
There seems to be several streams around the same discussion (Iâm guessing). It would be wonderful if we could gather in the collegium room at 3444 and have a go, or have Joe give us a lecture, but I suppose this is as close as it gets in this digital age.
As I remember it, we used the word church in RS-1 to describe a dynamic, that part between no longer and not yet where you bump into people laying their life down to create the new future. Our institutional churches have always had a struggle with that as have we all, and both have used the symbols and story surrounding our understanding of that dynamic for all sorts of purposes.
Some think we failed (came apart at the center), others think weâve had some conditional success, but then that happens when we missed the Bonhoeffer paper.
I enjoy Borg, Crossan, and the research of late into early Christianity (try getting through Crossanâs The Birth of Christianity), especially Borgâs description of Jesus as a Jewish mystic in the prophetic tradition, pushing the Judaism of his day into the future, refusing the domination of Rome. Our local Presbyterian Seminary professors seem to have some criticisms of Borg, though I donât understand them at all. Richard Rohr and others have done an impressive job of pulling all this through our daily lives in some creative ways.
But all that aside, the suffering (in all its forms) of the world seems to lose its footing in all of this. Religions and adherents (or non adherents) attempting to justify their various perspectives, which leaks over into the political and economic discussions (interesting how their efforts at justification of their position follows much the same lines as religions), put the majority of their efforts into keeping afloat, while pointing to their minimal efforts to address the suffering of the world, as their raison dâêtre. With a few notable exceptions, most local churches (denominations, etc.) I know anything about spend about 80-90% on themselves and a little for some social/health projects, not unlike Political and other groups. Much of this has been known for awhile and more is coming to surface, which is growing the sense of distrust and disgust with institutions, but does not create an atmosphere for positive change.
But amidst all of this the world is suffering. Climate change is having dramatic effects, wealth inequality hardly describes what the poor are experiencing, corporations contribute as much to the destruction of the environment as to wealth creation, wars are endless. Most if not all of us have intimate experience with all of this. The old hope if things get bad enough, good will happen doesnât seem to be working. It may be that we should shift our conversation from the good or bad old days to what we see are the tipping points and what weâre trying where we are to make the future happen. In this digital age, this may be one new/old way to create the new future.
George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Mobile 512/252-2756 <mailto:geowanda1@me.com>geowanda1@me.com
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about." Margaret Wheatley
On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, Judi White via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I do not go to a church. I remember the awe of high ritual. In the scotch Presbyterian and Eppiscopal Cathedral in my upbringing. The praying and preaching were not much. The music held it all. The daily office was a recovery of the awe...every day. RS1 sunk in after I learned to meditate and function in the world of spirit. Before meditation life was a regular series of burnouts.By meditation I dont mean sitting in silence, although I do. I mean living mindfully. Social pioneering and the new church is pure spirit. The Divine and We are One. How to catalyze this experience in the lives of people incommunities is foundational to sustainable changes. Sometimes OE/ICA got it right. Sometimes it doesn't.
On Sunday, March 22, 2015, Karenbueno via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thank you, Dharma! I continue to attend my local United Methodist Church. I find there people who are wanting to serve others, who relate to the Christian symbols, and who give of their time, talent, and finances to the work of the Christian church. I may not agree with all of the theology I hear, but I know that this is an agency that is doing good work in the world.
I am also active in the broader work of the United Methodist Women, who give generously for leadership training of women, and for mission projects around the world, for health care, feeding programs, child care, etc.
I sometimes even hear sermons with great authenticity! :-)
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message----- From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Marilyn Crocker <<mailto:marilyncrocker@juno.com>marilyncrocker@juno.com>; 'Mary Kurian D'Souza' <<mailto:marykdsouza@gmail.com>marykdsouza@gmail.com>; oe <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Sun, Mar 22, 2015 9:05 am Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology Dear all,
What a great opportunity it is to be able to talk about issues lie this with a community spread around the globe. My take on these issues - the only reason to go to church, temple, mosque etc is to be in dialogue with the symbol systems of the world that help us make sense of living. Dialogue goes both ways so we either get something from that experience or we give it new meaning. This is one avenue for social change. Of course, it is possible that the meaning building dynamic has move onto to other institutions. In which case, that's where we too would want to be.
Although a life of service has an impact on those around us, symbols have their own unique role. When these are not rejuvenated, society develops monstrosities like ISIS, religious fanatics from the various faiths of the world etc.
So the question for me is - what are the symbols in our life and how do we let our love for life speak through them.
Dharma
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:02 AM, Marilyn Crocker via OE <<mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Hi Dear Mary,
Iâm intrigued by your comment that âFor Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA.â
For me our âmethods of participationâ were all about the life dynamics undergirding RSI, but couched in secular terms describing âthe way life isâ (TWLI) as we used to say or limits, possibility, freedom, corporate resolve/action or the consult method of baseline situation, vision, contradictions, proposals, tactics and implementaries.
My sense of that alignment of TWLI and our methods allowed me to keep serving in villages, local communities, schools, businesses, often at great personal cost. I experienced deep and profound spiritual interpersonal connections in these interactions that allowed me to say, âI am being my personal mission or calling.â
Now at 72, in retirement and needing to be a 24/7 caregiver for my 87 year old husband who has progressive cognitive impairment, I still depend upon the fundamental understandings RSI gifted to me: All is Good, the Past is Approved, All that I Am is Received, and the Future is Open filled with radical Possibility.
I respect your perspective and your hope to awaken in your children depth and mystery. My experience is that although Christian liturgy and mindfulness practices help some, the raw living a life of selfless care is the best entry point.
With love and respect,
Marilyn
From: OE <mailto:[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]>[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Mary Kurian D'Souza via OE Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:43 PM To: Rod Rippel Cc: Colleague Dialogue; <mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>oe@lists.wedgeblade.net Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Trends in Theology
Rod,
Thank you for raising this question. I have noticed that the recent celebrations of completed lives of our colleagues from the order used less of the rituals and more of poetry.
I myself do not go to Church and am suffocated by sermons etc. that are not authentic.
Spirituality has become more alive. Am searching for a way to deepen this experience and to communicate to my children the depth and mystery that open up in life through practices such as through meditation and in being mindful.
For Cyprian and myself RS1 was not as profound as the methods of participation etc. that were transmitted to us through the order/ICA
With respect, Mary
On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Rod Rippel via Dialogue < <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Almost to a person colleagues of the Spirit Movement and the Order never referred to God or used the word 'God' very much when talking about their lives or life decisions. Instead they simply said, "I had RS-1 in...." or they would ask, "When was your RS-1?" God-talk had already moved beyond theism to Event and poetry, and personal myth.
What was your experience? Rod R
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