Can Christianity Be Saved? Can Religion Be Saved?
Last week New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wrote an article asking "Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?" in which he asserted that manifestations of liberal Christianity, like the Episcopal Church, are facing imminent death. Diana Butler Ross, author of the recent book Christianity After Religion, responded to Douthat this week in the HuffPost, suggesting that conservative churches as well as liberal ones are declining. She broadens the question to, "Can Christianity Be Saved?" She ultimately asks, can liberal churches save Christianity? She refers to isolated instances of local churches that are experiencing renewal, but suggests "the denominational structures have yet to adjust their institutions to the recovery of practical wisdom that is remaking local congregations." You may access Bass's article at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_... The question could perhaps be taken to yet another level by asking, "Can religion be saved?" Or perhaps even more relevant, using our language and concerns from the 60s and 70s, is the question, "Can movemental Christianity survive and thrive without the institutional church?" Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted)
The article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw> Interesting article. It assumes health of the church can be measured by numbers, but concludes correctly that we need to better define what it means to be a Christian. He says: /Today, by contrast, the leaders of the Episcopal Church and similar bodies often don't seem to be offering anything you can't already get from a purely secular liberalism. Which suggests that perhaps they should pause, amid their frantic renovations, and consider not just what they would change about historic Christianity, but what they would defend and offer uncompromisingly to the world. / I may be wrong, but it may be that there is little difference between a social liberal and a Christian except what one calls ones self. It all boils down to what the defining attribute is for Christianity. And for this I would put forth Robin R. Meyers definition: /The ultimate defining characteristic of Christianity is *the incarnation*, the mystery of God's presence in a person. The Word became flesh, as John put it (1:14), and //lived among us. The incarnation gives the faith its form and content, bringing God "nearer to us than our jugular vein," to quote the Qur'an (50:16). / /Saving Jesus from the Church/ In this definition, the mantra /"What would Jesus do?"/ takes on basic importance. It is a test of an individual and does not require or recognize any organizational membership. The organizational membership only points to a set of symbols and rites that a group uses to remind them of the wisdom that Jesus brought as the incarnation of the Mystery, God. The gift of the church is the keeper of the history and the gathering of the faithful. Len On 7/16/2012 2:44 PM, R Williams wrote:
Last week /New York Times/ columnist Ross Douthat wrote an article asking "Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?" in which he asserted that manifestations of liberal Christianity, like the Episcopal Church, are facing imminent death. Diana Butler Ross, author of the recent book /Christianity After Religion, /responded to Douthat this week in the HuffPost, suggesting that conservative churches as well as liberal ones are declining. She broadens the question to, "Can Christianity Be Saved?" She ultimately asks, can liberal churches save Christianity? She refers to isolated instances of local churches that are experiencing renewal, but suggests "the denominational structures have yet to adjust their institutions to the recovery of practical wisdom that is remaking local congregations." You may access Bass's article at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_... The question could perhaps be taken to yet another level by asking, "Can religion be saved?" Or perhaps even more relevant, using our language and concerns from the 60s and 70s, is the question, "Can movemental Christianity survive and thrive without the institutional church?" Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted)
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Diana Butler Ross, author of the recent book Christianity After Religion, responded to Douthat this week in the HuffPost, suggesting that conservative churches as well as liberal ones are declining. She broadens the question to, "Can Christianity Be Saved?" She ultimately asks, can liberal churches save Christianity? She refers to isolated instances of local churches that are experiencing renewal, but suggests "the denominational structures have yet to adjust their institutions to the recovery of practical wisdom
Len, This column by Douthat is the one to which Diana Butler Bass replied, that I referenced. If you want to see the Bass response just Google or Yahoo "Can Christianity Be Saved." She basically says what you're saying. Randy "Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) ________________________________ From: Len Hockley <lenh@efn.org> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Can Christianity Be Saved? Can Religion Be Saved? The article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw Interesting article. It assumes health of the church can be measured by numbers, but concludes correctly that we need to better define what it means to be a Christian. He says: Today, by contrast, the leaders of the Episcopal Church and similar bodies often don’t seem to be offering anything you can’t already get from a purely secular liberalism. Which suggests that perhaps they should pause, amid their frantic renovations, and consider not just what they would change about historic Christianity, but what they would defend and offer uncompromisingly to the world. I may be wrong, but it may be that there is little difference between a social liberal and a Christian except what one calls ones self. It all boils down to what the defining attribute is for Christianity. And for this I would put forth Robin R. Meyers definition: The ultimate defining characteristic of Christianity is the incarnation, the mystery of God's presence in a person. The Word became flesh, as John put it (1:14), and lived among us. The incarnation gives the faith its form and content, bringing God "nearer to us than our jugular vein," to quote the Qur'an (50:16). Saving Jesus from the Church In this definition, the mantra "What would Jesus do?" takes on basic importance. It is a test of an individual and does not require or recognize any organizational membership. The organizational membership only points to a set of symbols and rites that a group uses to remind them of the wisdom that Jesus brought as the incarnation of the Mystery, God. The gift of the church is the keeper of the history and the gathering of the faithful. Len On 7/16/2012 2:44 PM, R Williams wrote: Last week New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wrote an article asking "Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?" in which he asserted that manifestations of liberal Christianity, like the Episcopal Church, are facing imminent death. that is remaking local congregations."
You may access Bass's article at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_... The question could perhaps be taken to yet another level by asking, "Can religion be saved?" Or perhaps even more relevant, using our language and concerns from the 60s and 70s, is the question, "Can movemental Christianity survive and thrive without the institutional church?" Randy
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted)
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A word of perspective: "The church's function is to serve humanity -- not to get people to join it. And so it is with any other religion. God will take care of all the joining if you go about your task of serving humanity." JWM, "Social Demonstration: Mass Replication", Bending History 2, p. 270. Elsewhere I recall a statement about anytime you find yourself defending God or Christ (or the Church?) you can be sure that it's not God or Christ (or the Church) that you are defending. So maybe what this is about is finding the most effective way to serve humanity. John Epps At 05:09 AM 7/18/2012, you wrote:
Len,
This column by Douthat is the one to which Diana Butler Bass replied, that I referenced. If you want to see the Bass response just Google or Yahoo "Can Christianity Be Saved." She basically says what you're saying.
Randy
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) From: Len Hockley <lenh@efn.org> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Can Christianity Be Saved? Can Religion Be Saved?
The article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw
Interesting article. It assumes health of the church can be measured by numbers, but concludes correctly that we need to better define what it means to be a Christian. He says:
Today, by contrast, the leaders of the Episcopal Church and similar bodies often donât seem to be offering anything you canât already get from a purely secular liberalism. Which suggests that perhaps they should pause, amid their frantic renovations, and consider not just what they would change about historic Christianity, but what they would defend and offer uncompromisingly to the world.
I may be wrong, but it may be that there is little difference between a social liberal and a Christian except what one calls ones self.
It all boils down to what the defining attribute is for Christianity. And for this I would put forth Robin R. Meyers definition:
The ultimate defining characteristic of Christianity is the incarnation, the mystery of God's presence in a person. The Word became flesh, as John put it (1:14), and lived among us. The incarnation gives the faith its form and content, bringing God "nearer to us than our jugular vein," to quote the Qur'an (50:16). Saving Jesus from the Church
In this definition, the mantra "What would Jesus do?" takes on basic importance. It is a test of an individual and does not require or recognize any organizational membership. The organizational membership only points to a set of symbols and rites that a group uses to remind them of the wisdom that Jesus brought as the incarnation of the Mystery, God.
The gift of the church is the keeper of the history and the gathering of the faithful.
Len
On 7/16/2012 2:44 PM, R Williams wrote:
Last week New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wrote an article asking "Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?" in which he asserted that manifestations of liberal Christianity, like the Episcopal Church, are facing imminent death.
Diana Butler Ross, author of the recent book Christianity After Religion, responded to Douthat this week in the HuffPost, suggesting that conservative churches as well as liberal ones are declining. She broadens the question to, "Can Christianity Be Saved?" She ultimately asks, can liberal churches save Christianity? She refers to isolated instances of local churches that are experiencing renewal, but suggests "the denominational structures have yet to adjust their institutions to the recovery of practical wisdom that is remaking local congregations."
You may access Bass's article at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_...
The question could perhaps be taken to yet another level by asking, "Can religion be saved?" Or perhaps even more relevant, using our language and concerns from the 60s and 70s, is the question, "Can movemental Christianity survive and thrive without the institutional church?"
Randy
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted)
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_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list <mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
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Amen to the serving comment Only reason for the church Which I love Priscilla Wilson Sent from my iPhone On Jul 18, 2012, at 5:50 PM, "jlepps@pc.jaring.my" <jlepps@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
A word of perspective:
"The church's function is to serve humanity -- not to get people to join it. And so it is with any other religion. God will take care of all the joining if you go about your task of serving humanity." JWM, "Social Demonstration: Mass Replication", Bending History 2, p. 270.
Elsewhere I recall a statement about anytime you find yourself defending God or Christ (or the Church?) you can be sure that it's not God or Christ (or the Church) that you are defending.
So maybe what this is about is finding the most effective way to serve humanity.
John Epps
At 05:09 AM 7/18/2012, you wrote:
Len,
This column by Douthat is the one to which Diana Butler Bass replied, that I referenced. If you want to see the Bass response just Google or Yahoo "Can Christianity Be Saved." She basically says what you're saying.
Randy
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) From: Len Hockley <lenh@efn.org> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Can Christianity Be Saved? Can Religion Be Saved?
The article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw
Interesting article. It assumes health of the church can be measured by numbers, but concludes correctly that we need to better define what it means to be a Christian. He says:
Today, by contrast, the leaders of the Episcopal Church and similar bodies often don’t seem to be offering anything you can’t already get from a purely secular liberalism. Which suggests that perhaps they should pause, amid their frantic renovations, and consider not just what they would change about historic Christianity, but what they would defend and offer uncompromisingly to the world.
I may be wrong, but it may be that there is little difference between a social liberal and a Christian except what one calls ones self.
It all boils down to what the defining attribute is for Christianity. And for this I would put forth Robin R. Meyers definition:
The ultimate defining characteristic of Christianity is the incarnation, the mystery of God's presence in a person. The Word became flesh, as John put it (1:14), and lived among us. The incarnation gives the faith its form and content, bringing God "nearer to us than our jugular vein," to quote the Qur'an (50:16). Saving Jesus from the Church
In this definition, the mantra "What would Jesus do?" takes on basic importance. It is a test of an individual and does not require or recognize any organizational membership. The organizational membership only points to a set of symbols and rites that a group uses to remind them of the wisdom that Jesus brought as the incarnation of the Mystery, God.
The gift of the church is the keeper of the history and the gathering of the faithful.
Len
On 7/16/2012 2:44 PM, R Williams wrote:
Last week New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wrote an article asking "Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?" in which he asserted that manifestations of liberal Christianity, like the Episcopal Church, are facing imminent death.
Diana Butler Ross, author of the recent book Christianity After Religion, responded to Douthat this week in the HuffPost, suggesting that conservative churches as well as liberal ones are declining. She broadens the question to, "Can Christianity Be Saved?" She ultimately asks, can liberal churches save Christianity? She refers to isolated instances of local churches that are experiencing renewal, but suggests "the denominational structures have yet to adjust their institutions to the recovery of practical wisdom that is remaking local congregations."
You may access Bass's article at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_...
The question could perhaps be taken to yet another level by asking, "Can religion be saved?" Or perhaps even more relevant, using our language and concerns from the 60s and 70s, is the question, "Can movemental Christianity survive and thrive without the institutional church?"
Randy
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires." -Martin Buber (adapted)
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Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net
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Looking for someone, possibly, to share driving on a road trip leaving Exeter, NH around the 25th of August, going to Denver area by Labor day and then on to Phoenix. Anyone? Jim Wiegel Jfwiegel@yahoo.com “One cannot live in the afternoon of life according to the program of life’s morning; for what was great in the morning will be of little importance in the evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have become a lie.” – Carl Jung Partners in Participation Upcoming public course opportunities: ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012 ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details.
participants (5)
-
James Wiegel -
jlepps＠pc.jaring.my -
Len Hockley -
R Williams -
Wilson Priscilla