“And now we know why”
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
Jim, Most of the “why’s” are not spelled out in particular documents, but cumulatively it becomes clear. Joe did a talk on our journey of selecting HDP projects, starting with a whole nation, then a whole island etc. When we tried the replication in Maharashtra we took the whole State, minus Mumbai. But from our grid that was essentially doing a whole Area. Replication means enabling the Localis (Polis-Micro-Parish) to work as a dynamic. I think that would man doing one District-Taluka-Cluster. Our other failure is that we didn’t understand that a cluster should be based on the ecology of a watershed - all the villages enabling their dependence on caring for the water along with forestation, energy and much more. Having spent a year of my life working on the Economic Acceleration Team I now know why we failed (in most cases). We failed at the Religious House expansion for several reasons. Permeation dependency, language, youth, and never shifting to the Third Campaign where they would become Wayside Inns. We had our Movement, but didn’t really understand how to make the shift. I am sure there is more. The renewal of the Christian Church experiment centered on the creation of Galaxies. We did that, but so many of the pastors ended up joining the Order and others felt abandoned when we made our Turn to the World. I remember when it really got tough recruiting RS-I after so many years of so many. Something shifted and we spoke of doing an end-run by shifting to the Parish (the World). Our work with Spirit people of other Faiths was a bit rocky. I actually think the task is still before us and I certainly feel we know so much more now as to what that really means. There are a lot of great things in the Living Archives our our deep learnings. I spoke with Susan Craver on the history of Training Futures. It was once seen as one of the top five programs in the country. Now it is not and is really struggling. The new administrators never understood the power of Spirit and the role it played. They tried to do it with the “brick and mortar” of the design, and never learned how it takes Spirit leadership to transform the lives. I guess it would sort of be like trying to do RS-I without grasping the integration of every single part. Now we know why. So in short, we never really “failed”, we just had a hell of a bunch of great learnings! With Respect, (and my humble opinion!) Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 15:15, James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dick, I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism. Thanks!! Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
As our old friend Paul said a long time ago, " the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." Is that why? Jann Dick, I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism. Thanks!! Jack On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Jack: you said in a recent email . . . We failed at replication, but now we know why. We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why. We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why. I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”? _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.” And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each. I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree. But I do. I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth." I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.” Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net <http://wedgeblade.net/>. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net <mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thank you.Ann On Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 07:50:16 PM MDT, Mari Crocker via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.” And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each. I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree. But I do. I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth." I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.” Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe) On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Dick, I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism. Thanks!! Jack On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: Jack: you said in a recent email . . . We failed at replication, but now we know why. We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why. We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why. I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”? _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks Marilyn & Joe for your helpful sharing....and all the other sharing too. Meaningful and reflective dialogue are key to the future. Thanks for to all who have shared their wisdom in books, developing the Archives and continuing to live a life On Behalf of ALL🌠🌎🌍🌏 Grace & Peace Wanda Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 3, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Ann Ensinger Ensinger via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Thank you. Ann
On Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 07:50:16 PM MDT, Mari Crocker via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.”
And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each.
I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.
But I do.
I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."
I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”
Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks to all, especially this pull-together by Marilyn and Joe. John and Lynda Cock From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Holcombe Wanda via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Reply-To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 at 9:45 AM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Holcombe Wanda <wandah70@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why” Thanks Marilyn & Joe for your helpful sharing....and all the other sharing too. Meaningful and reflective dialogue are key to the future. Thanks for to all who have shared their wisdom in books, developing the Archives and continuing to live a life On Behalf of ALL🌠🌎🌍🌏 Grace & Peace Wanda Sent from my iPhone On Sep 3, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Ann Ensinger Ensinger via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Thank you. Ann On Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 07:50:16 PM MDT, Mari Crocker via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.” And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each. I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree. But I do. I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth." I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.” Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe) On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Dick, I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism. Thanks!! Jack On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick Sent from my iPhone On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net>> wrote: Jack: you said in a recent email . . . We failed at replication, but now we know why. We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why. We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why. I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net<http://wedgeblade.net/>. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”? _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks, Marilyn. The IAF is having its 25th Asia conference this weekend in Malaysia. We were there the first 12 years of it. It's being followed by ICA conference. We didn't fail! Better, the Mystery didn't fail. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Regards to Joe. Grace & PeaceJohn EppsSent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message --------From: Mari Crocker via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Date: 9/3/19 19:50 (GMT-07:00) To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Mari Crocker <maricrocker@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why” I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.” And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each. I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.But I do.I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:Dick,I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm is here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism. Thanks!!JackOn Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives lifeDickSent from my iPhoneOn Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:Jack: you said in a recent email . . .We failed at replication, but now we know why.We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?_______________________________________________Dialogue mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net____________... mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net____________... mailing listDialogue@lists.wedgeblade.nethttp://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thank you all for your reflections. At an Order youth meeting at the South House, JWM spoke. The only part I can remember was when he said, the "real" impact of the Order will be seen in its third generation. I hear on Facebook tidbits from gen 2 about their lives, cares, & activism. Sometimes, I get a glimmer of gen 3. And I smile. Watch your grand children! My daughters have grown to be amazing women. As I witness their self understanding, world view & global care. I had the gift of Mangla & Hiramon's daughter here in Chicago for a couple of years. What a testimony to the Blue shirts! I have no doubt the Spirit Movement made an impact. The Journey itself is the victory. Paula On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 8:56 PM Mari Crocker via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.”
And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each.
I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.
But I do.
I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."
I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”
Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm *is* here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
The Water Warriors in Cannonball ND are another example. Nancy Trask 515-505-0456 nancy50273@centurylink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Paula Philbrook via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Paula Philbrook <paula.philbrook@gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 00:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why” Thank you all for your reflections. At an Order youth meeting at the South House, JWM spoke. The only part I can remember was when he said, the "real" impact of the Order will be seen in its third generation. I hear on Facebook tidbits from gen 2 about their lives, cares, & activism. Sometimes, I get a glimmer of gen 3. And I smile. Watch your grand children! My daughters have grown to be amazing women. As I witness their self understanding, world view & global care. I had the gift of Mangla & Hiramon's daughter here in Chicago for a couple of years. What a testimony to the Blue shirts! I have no doubt the Spirit Movement made an impact. The Journey itself is the victory. Paula On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 8:56 PM Mari Crocker via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.”
And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each.
I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.
But I do.
I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."
I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”
Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm *is* here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
To suggest that we succeeded or failed at, for example, the renewal of the local church, is to me a little arrogant in that it seems to assume that we were the only influences at work in that effort, and that it all began and ended within the parameters of the time during which we were engaged in the work. I will say that at the time we declared that the church was renewed, and then did the “turn to the world,” the renewed church did not look like what I had envisioned the renewed church would look like. Nor does it today. So for me the question is not did we succeed or fail, but were we faithful to the call and to our covenant as a community. I believe we were, and therefore I am at peace with Bonhoeffer’s proclamation that “it is God who sees the heart, weighs the deed, and directs the course of history.” (Did I remember that correctly?) Meanwhile, as we all well know, whatever we choose to call it, success or failure, is indicative of little more than the relationship we take to the reality we have. Randy
On Sep 4, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Nancy Trask via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
The Water Warriors in Cannonball ND are another example.
Nancy Trask 515-505-0456 nancy50273@centurylink.net
----- Original Message ----- From: Paula Philbrook via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Paula Philbrook <paula.philbrook@gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 00:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why”
Thank you all for your reflections.
At an Order youth meeting at the South House, JWM spoke. The only part I can remember was when he said, the "real" impact of the Order will be seen in its third generation.
I hear on Facebook tidbits from gen 2 about their lives, cares, & activism. Sometimes, I get a glimmer of gen 3. And I smile. Watch your grand children! My daughters have grown to be amazing women. As I witness their self understanding, world view & global care.
I had the gift of Mangla & Hiramon's daughter here in Chicago for a couple of years. What a testimony to the Blue shirts!
I have no doubt the Spirit Movement made an impact. The Journey itself is the victory.
Paula
On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 8:56 PM Mari Crocker via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.”
And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each.
I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.
But I do.
I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."
I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”
Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm *is* here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Thanks, Randy! Profound! ... with all! John C. On 9/4/19, 10:17 AM, "Dialogue on behalf of Randy Williams via Dialogue" <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net on behalf of dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: To suggest that we succeeded or failed at, for example, the renewal of the local church, is to me a little arrogant in that it seems to assume that we were the only influences at work in that effort, and that it all began and ended within the parameters of the time during which we were engaged in the work. I will say that at the time we declared that the church was renewed, and then did the “turn to the world,” the renewed church did not look like what I had envisioned the renewed church would look like. Nor does it today. So for me the question is not did we succeed or fail, but were we faithful to the call and to our covenant as a community. I believe we were, and therefore I am at peace with Bonhoeffer’s proclamation that “it is God who sees the heart, weighs the deed, and directs the course of history.” (Did I remember that correctly?) Meanwhile, as we all well know, whatever we choose to call it, success or failure, is indicative of little more than the relationship we take to the reality we have. Randy > On Sep 4, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Nancy Trask via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > > The Water Warriors in Cannonball ND are another example. > > Nancy Trask > 515-505-0456 > nancy50273@centurylink.net > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paula Philbrook via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> > To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> > Cc: Paula Philbrook <paula.philbrook@gmail.com> > Sent: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 00:42:20 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why” > > Thank you all for your reflections. > > At an Order youth meeting at the South House, JWM spoke. The only part I > can remember was when he said, the "real" impact of the Order will be seen > in its third generation. > > I hear on Facebook tidbits from gen 2 about their lives, cares, & > activism. Sometimes, I get a glimmer of gen 3. And I smile. Watch your > grand children! My daughters have grown to be amazing women. As I witness > their self understanding, world view & global care. > > I had the gift of Mangla & Hiramon's daughter here in Chicago for a couple > of years. What a testimony to the Blue shirts! > > I have no doubt the Spirit Movement made an impact. The Journey itself is > the victory. > > Paula > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 8:56 PM Mari Crocker via Dialogue < > dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: > >> I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about >> all the places “we failed.” >> >> And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the >> trenches of each. >> >> I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary >> that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really >> disagree. >> >> But I do. >> >> I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the >> latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum >> -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating >> the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP >> Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the >> IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad >> cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the >> earth, the planet earth." >> >> I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose >> lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the >> OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, >> over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative >> research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can >> contradict themes of “failure.” >> >> Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe) >> >> On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue < >> dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: >> >> Dick, >> >> I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word >> “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, >> experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the >> creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. >> We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. >> So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for >> example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded >> but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to >> be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly >> right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new >> paradigm *is* here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes >> the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism. >> >> Thanks!! >> >> Jack >> >> On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue < >> dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: >> >> Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any >> of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that >> matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, >> although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is >> failure....failure is what drives life >> Dick >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue < >> dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote: >> >> Jack: you said in a recent email . . . >> >> >> We failed at replication, but now we know why. >> >> >> We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why. >> >> >> We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why. >> >> >> I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around >> wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these >> “why’s”? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dialogue mailing list >> Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dialogue mailing list >> Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dialogue mailing list >> Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dialogue mailing list >> Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net >> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > Dialogue mailing list > Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net > http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net _______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Appreciate this - WELL said! Sunny -----Original Message----- From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> On Behalf Of Randy Williams via Dialogue Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 8:18 AM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why” To suggest that we succeeded or failed at, for example, the renewal of the local church, is to me a little arrogant in that it seems to assume that we were the only influences at work in that effort, and that it all began and ended within the parameters of the time during which we were engaged in the work. I will say that at the time we declared that the church was renewed, and then did the “turn to the world,” the renewed church did not look like what I had envisioned the renewed church would look like. Nor does it today. So for me the question is not did we succeed or fail, but were we faithful to the call and to our covenant as a community. I believe we were, and therefore I am at peace with Bonhoeffer’s proclamation that “it is God who sees the heart, weighs the deed, and directs the course of history.” (Did I remember that correctly?) Meanwhile, as we all well know, whatever we choose to call it, success or failure, is indicative of little more than the relationship we take to the reality we have. Randy
On Sep 4, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Nancy Trask via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
The Water Warriors in Cannonball ND are another example.
Nancy Trask 515-505-0456 nancy50273@centurylink.net
----- Original Message ----- From: Paula Philbrook via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Paula Philbrook <paula.philbrook@gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 00:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why”
Thank you all for your reflections.
At an Order youth meeting at the South House, JWM spoke. The only part I can remember was when he said, the "real" impact of the Order will be seen in its third generation.
I hear on Facebook tidbits from gen 2 about their lives, cares, & activism. Sometimes, I get a glimmer of gen 3. And I smile. Watch your grand children! My daughters have grown to be amazing women. As I witness their self understanding, world view & global care.
I had the gift of Mangla & Hiramon's daughter here in Chicago for a couple of years. What a testimony to the Blue shirts!
I have no doubt the Spirit Movement made an impact. The Journey itself is the victory.
Paula
On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 8:56 PM Mari Crocker via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.”
And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each.
I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.
But I do.
I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."
I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”
Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm *is* here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________ Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Dialogue mailing list Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net
Randy, This is very helpful. Thank you. Mary On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 9:11 AM Sunny Walker via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Appreciate this - WELL said! Sunny
-----Original Message----- From: Dialogue <dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net> On Behalf Of Randy Williams via Dialogue Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 8:18 AM To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Randy Williams <randycw1938@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why”
To suggest that we succeeded or failed at, for example, the renewal of the local church, is to me a little arrogant in that it seems to assume that we were the only influences at work in that effort, and that it all began and ended within the parameters of the time during which we were engaged in the work.
I will say that at the time we declared that the church was renewed, and then did the “turn to the world,” the renewed church did not look like what I had envisioned the renewed church would look like. Nor does it today.
So for me the question is not did we succeed or fail, but were we faithful to the call and to our covenant as a community. I believe we were, and therefore I am at peace with Bonhoeffer’s proclamation that “it is God who sees the heart, weighs the deed, and directs the course of history.” (Did I remember that correctly?)
Meanwhile, as we all well know, whatever we choose to call it, success or failure, is indicative of little more than the relationship we take to the reality we have.
Randy
On Sep 4, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Nancy Trask via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
The Water Warriors in Cannonball ND are another example.
Nancy Trask 515-505-0456 nancy50273@centurylink.net
----- Original Message ----- From: Paula Philbrook via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> Cc: Paula Philbrook <paula.philbrook@gmail.com> Sent: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 00:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Dialogue] “And now we know why”
Thank you all for your reflections.
At an Order youth meeting at the South House, JWM spoke. The only part I can remember was when he said, the "real" impact of the Order will be seen in its third generation.
I hear on Facebook tidbits from gen 2 about their lives, cares, & activism. Sometimes, I get a glimmer of gen 3. And I smile. Watch your grand children! My daughters have grown to be amazing women. As I witness their self understanding, world view & global care.
I had the gift of Mangla & Hiramon's daughter here in Chicago for a couple of years. What a testimony to the Blue shirts!
I have no doubt the Spirit Movement made an impact. The Journey itself is the victory.
Paula
On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 8:56 PM Mari Crocker via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
I love Jim’s probing questions in response to Jack’s pronouncements about all the places “we failed.”
And I appreciate Dick’s gentle defense, based on his experience in the trenches of each.
I also appreciate Jack’s subsequent expansive philosophical commentary that, as only Jack can, enlarged the context such that none of us really disagree.
But I do.
I believe we DID win in renewing the historic church as it existed in the latter part of the 20th century (via RSI and our comprehensive curriculum -the Academy), in large part by expanding Religious Houses (via initiating the LCX and Parish Outreach Projects), and globalizing our work via HDP Replication (via Town Meetings, HDTS and Global Collegia such as the IERD.). And then the “we” had become the “us” — so many people of myriad cultures, languages and faiths, working “as local people, to build the earth, the planet earth."
I measure our “win” versus “failure” in the words of human beings whose lives were “utterly changed/transformed” by their interaction with us, the OE, the ICA, the “blue shirts”, etc…….Joe and I have heard those words, over and over again. These need not be documented in polls or quantitative research. I trust these voices are echoed in our archives and can contradict themes of “failure.”
Grace and peace, Marilyn (and Joe)
On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:05 AM, Jack Gilles via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Dick,
I just wanted to affirm your response to my rather glib use of the word “failure”. All of creation, through a sensitive and response capacity, experiments with new forms. They are then constantly refined in the creative process over eons of time to what became lasting. So do we humans. We evolve through experimentation, learn from that experience and adjust. So we certainly were trying to be responsive to a vision of, (HDP, for example), what the new local needs to look like. We may not have succeeded but we learned. And it is that learning (and experimenting) that needs to be shared with other awakened one; and the time is short. You are exactly right: “failure is what drives life”. One thing clear to me is the new paradigm *is* here. The question is how fast that new paradigm becomes the operating paradigm. Telling the New Story is the new evangelism.
Thanks!!
Jack
On Aug 30, 2019, at 16:18, Richard Alton via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Great question Jim: I did a lot of replicating and would not describe any of them as failures or for that matter the 3 religious houses and for that matter a life time of church renewal- all have been awesome experiences, although would agree if you are saying the basic nature of life is failure....failure is what drives life Dick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2019, at 1:15 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
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The fruits of change are rarely what we put on a chart or action plan. The fruits are found in strange and wonderful places and that is what keeps all of us going. Here's to continuing this awe-filled journey! Jeanette On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:15 PM James Wiegel via Dialogue < dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
Jack: you said in a recent email . . .
We failed at replication, but now we know why.
We failed at expanding Religious Houses, but now we know why.
We failed at renewing the historical Christian church, but now we know why.
I tried hunting around the archive website and looked a bit around wedgeblade.net. Is there a document somewhere that outlines these “why’s”?
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participants (15)
-
Ann Ensinger Ensinger -
Holcombe Wanda -
Jack Gilles -
James Wiegel -
Jeanette Stanfield -
jlepps39 -
John C -
laurelcg＠aol.com -
Mari Crocker -
Mary Kurian D'Souza -
Nancy Trask -
Paula Philbrook -
Randy Williams -
Richard Alton -
Sunny Walker