<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Thanks for the questions, Marshall</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dick</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 1:54 PM W. J. via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:18px"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr">Dick, I applaud your interest in introducing your Methodist Church to Bonhoeffer with a movie and a movie conversation.</div><div dir="ltr">If you want to evaluate the various available Bonhoeffer films for appropriateness for your audience and your pedagogical intent, instead of just promoting the latest one that you just saw, check out this listing from the International Bonhoeffer Society:</div><div dir="ltr"><span><a href="https://bonhoeffersociety.org/2024/10/25/bonhoeffer-documentaries-and-films/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">https://bonhoeffersociety.org/2024/10/25/bonhoeffer-documentaries-and-films/</a></span><br></div><div dir="ltr">My perspective is that <b>all</b> of these films translate Bonhoeffer into being a character acting in a story the filmmaker wants to tell. </div><div dir="ltr">Each film may illuminate a facet of Dietrich's life, but we can never know <b>all</b> of his internal process as he struggled to discern the will of God for his life and death.</div><div dir="ltr">What comes closest to illuminating his personal struggle are the glimmers we catch through reading his writings and what witnesses have to say about his extraordinary presence with others in places like Tegel Prison, for example.</div><div dir="ltr">I would not want to be the director who had to select an actor who could fully embody this role in a movie, especially if that kind of depth were not even hinted at in the script. And if I had failed as a director to grasp a sense of what the <b>real</b> Bonhoeffer was about.</div><div dir="ltr">I might wind up with a <b>turkey</b> of a film. </div><div dir="ltr">But my bottom line is that everybody creates his or her own personal version of who Bonhoeffer was, based on one's individual values, perceptions, and experience of dealing with life questions. Or not.</div><div dir="ltr">And so the decisional question is, what is each of us going to do with "our" Bonhoeffer? What does "our" Bonhoeffer mean to us?</div><div dir="ltr">Marshall</div><div dir="ltr">I've attached my version of a generic list of possible questions for a movie conversation. These are like a 'palette' of colors from which to draw as appropriate for the group and their process. Please <b>improve</b> on this version by adding your own generic questions or questions pertinent to the Bonhoeffer film you decide to show.</div>
</div><div id="m_5203881653317992172yahoo_quoted_2835973476">
<div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
<div>
On Saturday, November 23, 2024 at 08:35:06 PM EST, Richard Alton via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id="m_5203881653317992172yiv8911521747"><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:large">Sorry about the money mistake. But I have seen the movie and thought Terry's comments were right on target. I am going to try and get my Methodist Church to go see the movie together and have an ORID conversation. Will be interesting. Sorry about yours and Sarah's eye problems. Just had a cataract operation. The eyes seem to go first as we age.</div><div style="font-size:large">Thanks, Dick</div></div><br clear="none"><div id="m_5203881653317992172yiv8911521747yqt44585"><div><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 6:46 PM Richard Alton <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:richard.alton@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">richard.alton@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:large">Marshal. go see the money and lead an ORID conversation with your community.. will surprise you.</div><div style="font-size:large">Dick</div></div><br clear="none"><div><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 5:31 PM W. J. via OE <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:"new times",serif;font-size:18px"><div dir="ltr">I still haven't seen the movie, but a few of us have. Here's my response to a private email from one colleague:</div><div dir="ltr">Marshall</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">D**, I'm guessing from your description that the screenplay was not the result of any in-depth study of Bonhoeffer's life or his theology. </div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">I bet the screenwriter didn't even bother to read Eberhard Bethge's biography.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">What I think he did is to create a cartoon Bonhoeffer character by superimposing the skeletal outline of Bonhoeffer's life onto a thriller movie framework.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">Leaving out the nuances and agonizing complexities of Bonhoeffer's ethical dilemmas as a pacifist.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">I'm not shocked that this cartoon version of Bonhoeffer has him wishing to "tear down the institutional church." </div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">I think the real Bonhoeffer's life was more profoundly nuanced than that kind of statement. His <i style="outline-color:currentcolor">Life Together</i> and <i style="outline-color:currentcolor">The Cost of Discipleship</i> were written while he supervised the underground seminary at Finkenwalde for students who were preparing to serve the dissenting Confessing Church that opposed the official German Church coalition that embraced Hitler. </div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">His focus on a "religionless Christianity" is a rejection of the 'smells and bells' and medieval belief system Luther inherited from Catholicism in favor of a radical immersion in the secular life of the world.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">And also a radical following of Jesus rather than middle class cultural norms.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">Something like the monastic life of seminary students at Finkenwalde. Or maybe the O:E.<br clear="none" style="outline-color:currentcolor"></div><div style="outline-color:currentcolor"><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">Although Bonhoeffer never abandoned his upper-class entitlement to a rich, privileged life. </div><div style="outline-color:currentcolor">I believe that <a shape="rect" href="https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/" style="outline-color:currentcolor" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">the real Dietrich was in love with his young student Eberhard</a>, who was the beneficiary of his will.<br clear="none" style="outline-color:currentcolor"></div></div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">Dietrich reluctantly became engaged to marry the much younger Maria Von Wedemeyer only after her grandmother relentlessly pushed her on him and only after Eberhard got engaged to Dietrich's niece Renate.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">I don't get the sense that he was ever hot to make love with Maria. Perhaps their experience of 'true love' was always from an emotional distance, especially after Dietrich's arrest just three months after their announcement. There were letters and supervised visits. That's all.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">After both became engaged, Dietrich wrote to Eberhard, imagining that </div></div><blockquote style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin-left:40px;border-width:medium;border-style:none;border-color:currentcolor;padding:0px;outline-color:currentcolor"><div style="font-family:"new times",serif;outline-color:currentcolor"><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;text-align:justify;outline-color:currentcolor"><b style="outline-color:currentcolor"><font size="2" style="outline-color:currentcolor">Now, we can resume our partnership, and we can travel together in those places where we found so much joy, and we can leave our wives back in Germany, in Berlin, or some place.</font></b></span></div></div></blockquote><div style="outline-color:currentcolor"><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">In other words, they both acquired beards, and Dietrich longed to renew and pursue their spiritual friendship as 'soul mates' or whatever they decided to call it. </div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">But Eberhard was never willing to venture below the belt (as far as we can tell).</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">I'm not at all sure that Dietrich was ever willing to go there, much as he may have longed to do just that. He wrote in prison that he would die a virgin.</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">But since Eberhard's <i style="outline-color:currentcolor">whole life</i> was about Dietrich--especially as his martyred mentor and forever lost lover--how <b style="outline-color:currentcolor">hard</b> is it to understand the depth of his love in return?</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">At least that's <i style="outline-color:currentcolor">my</i> version of Bonhoeffer. Now I'll have to see the damn movie!</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor">Marshall</div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><span style="outline-color:currentcolor"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/" style="outline-color:currentcolor" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay-- Deal With It</a></span></div></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin-top:10px;outline-color:currentcolor"><h3 style="font-size:14px;font-weight:400;color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:YahooSans,OpenSans,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin:0px;padding:8px 0px;outline-color:currentcolor"><span style="outline-color:currentcolor">Links in the message <span style="outline-color:currentcolor">(1)</span></span></h3><div id="m_5203881653317992172yiv8911521747m_2498630032559175789m_8855428202252300428ydp980848b7yiv2714530353ydpbc0a6909enhancr_card_3203739980" style="max-width:288px;font-family:YahooSans,OpenSans,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin:5px 5px 5px 0px;display:inline-block;outline-color:currentcolor"><a shape="rect" href="https://spiritualfriendship.org/2014/08/08/one-more-post-on-the-gay-bonhoeffer/" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);outline-color:currentcolor" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="288" height="80" style="border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224,228,233);width:288px;border-radius:2px;outline-color:currentcolor"><tbody style="outline-color:currentcolor"><tr style="outline-color:currentcolor"><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="80px" style="width:80px;background-color:rgb(0,0,0);border-radius:2px 0px 0px 2px;border-right:1px solid rgb(224,228,233);outline-color:currentcolor"><img src="https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/zxRzzEtocMM1hk0TOAFLJw--~A/Zmk9ZmlsbDt3PTgwO2g9ODA7YXBwaWQ9aWV4dHJhY3Q-/https://secure.gravatar.com/blavatar/2cc907ddfd97c36effa06451c4816a2f5edc42d90761d02e4289a23713e62483?s=200&ts=1732309442.cf.jpg" width="80" height="80" style="width: 80px; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 2px 0px 0px 2px; outline-color: currentcolor;"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="10px" style="width:10px;outline-color:currentcolor"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><h2 style="font-size:14px;line-height:16px;color:rgb(29,34,40);margin:4px 0px;max-width:186px;outline-color:currentcolor">One More Post on the “Gay” Bonhoeffer</h2></td></tr></tbody></table></a><div style="width:288px;min-height:0px;outline-color:currentcolor"><div style="outline-color:currentcolor"><div style="outline-color:currentcolor"><span style="outline-color:currentcolor"></span><div style="outline-color:currentcolor"><button title="Share" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><span style="width:16px;outline-color:currentcolor"></span></button></div></div></div></div></div><div id="m_5203881653317992172yiv8911521747m_2498630032559175789m_8855428202252300428ydp980848b7yiv2714530353ydpfd641762enhancr_card_2830400170" style="max-width:288px;font-family:YahooSans,OpenSans,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin:5px 5px 5px 0px;display:inline-block;outline-color:currentcolor"><a shape="rect" href="https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/06/dietrich-bonhoeffer-was-flamingly-gay-deal-with-it/" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);outline-color:currentcolor" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="288" height="80" style="border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224,228,233);width:288px;border-radius:2px;outline-color:currentcolor"><tbody style="outline-color:currentcolor"><tr style="outline-color:currentcolor"><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="80px" style="width:80px;background-color:rgb(0,0,0);border-radius:2px 0px 0px 2px;border-right:1px solid rgb(224,228,233);outline-color:currentcolor"><img src="https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/orrSE.bgVt2AAXC4cR6lsw--~A/Zmk9ZmlsbDt3PTgwO2g9ODA7YXBwaWQ9aWV4dHJhY3Q-/http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41o8jQGhxhL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-v3-big,TopRight,0,-55_SX278_SY278_PIkin4,BottomRight,1,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg.cf.jpg" width="80" height="80" style="width: 80px; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 2px 0px 0px 2px; outline-color: currentcolor;"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="10px" style="width:10px;outline-color:currentcolor"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="outline-color:currentcolor"><h2 style="font-size:14px;line-height:16px;color:rgb(29,34,40);margin:4px 0px;max-width:186px;outline-color:currentcolor">Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was Flamingly Gay--...</h2></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div></div></div><div style="margin-top:10px"><h3 style="font-size:14px;font-weight:400;color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:YahooSans,OpenSans,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin:0px;padding:8px 0px"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></h3></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
OE mailing list<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br clear="none">
</blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><span>-- </span><br clear="none"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Richard H. T. Alton</div><div>ICA Global Fund</div><div>The Last Chapter</div><div>United Methodist Net Zero</div><div>T: 773.344.7172</div><div><a shape="rect" href="mailto:richard.alton@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">richard.alton@gmail.com</a></div><div>Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2<br clear="none"></div><div><font size="2">Won't you be my neighbor?</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><span>-- </span><br clear="none"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Richard H. T. Alton</div><div>ICA Global Fund</div><div>The Last Chapter</div><div>United Methodist Net Zero</div><div>T: 773.344.7172</div><div><a shape="rect" href="mailto:richard.alton@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">richard.alton@gmail.com</a></div><div>Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2<br clear="none"></div><div><font size="2">Won't you be my neighbor?</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div><div id="m_5203881653317992172yqt14611">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">OE mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br clear="none"></div></div>
</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
OE mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Richard H. T. Alton</div><div>ICA Global Fund</div><div>The Last Chapter</div><div>United Methodist Net Zero</div><div>T: 773.344.7172</div><div><a href="mailto:richard.alton@gmail.com" target="_blank">richard.alton@gmail.com</a></div><div>Make Plain the Vision, Habakkuh 2:2<br></div><div><font size="2">Won't you be my neighbor?</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>