<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Still?? I recall conversations with you and others as far back as 1968 …<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">Jim Wiegel</span><br><div>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1" style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">“…the long work<br>
of turning their lives<br>
into a celebration<br>
is not easy. Come </span><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); font-size: 19pt;">and let us talk</span><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); font-size: 19pt;">“. </span></p><p class="p1"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); font-size: 19pt;">The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver</span></p></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 29, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Holcombe Wanda <wandah70@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">I believe we are in a global cultural malaise and Believe it is in someway as Marilyn shared:<div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: "times new roman", "new york", times, serif; font-size: 18px;"> </span><b style="font-family: "times new roman", "new york", times, serif; font-size: 18px;">a cultural backlash against global change that is perceived as both virtually inevitable and threatening to the survival of their traditional female gender identity</b><b style="font-family: "times new roman", "new york", times, serif; font-size: 18px;"> roles.</b><span style="font-family: "times new roman", "new york", times, serif; font-size: 18px;"> </span></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I also since it is also an emerging identity crisis for the male globally also. I don’t remember the figure but it was shared yesterday that 40,000 men committed suicide this year for various reasons. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Whoever wins this election….I perceive it will be up to both the female and male globally to create the new human being and global society. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I hope to they have to be 100 to be a part of that and see what the new human looks like an act like the new GLOBAL CITIZEN….</div><div dir="ltr">Wanda 💫✨🌟</div><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 29, 2024, at 9:43 AM, James Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Thanks<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">Jim Wiegel</span><br><div>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1" style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">“…the long work<br>
of turning their lives<br>
into a celebration<br>
is not easy. Come </span><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); font-size: 19pt;">and let us talk</span><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); font-size: 19pt;">“. </span></p><p class="p1"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); font-size: 19pt;">The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver</span></p></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 29, 2024, at 3:42 AM, w.schlesinger@pvida.net wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style>@font-face { font-family: Helvetica; }
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">It’s hard to respond point by point to demonstrably false statements and charges. COVID was so much more destructive than it needed to have been – largely due to Trump’s refusal to deal with the science and politicizing responses. The resistance to immunizations, use of masking (common in other parts of the world) – well, you get the point. Illusory claims of ‘greatness’ are just that. <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">We may see a Trump victory. And we need to be prepared to stay at the center, to understand that the order of things in the systems will continue to be a process of persons seeking to create a ‘visionary dream’ – to quote Bonhoeffer – and persons seeking to do what it caring and responsible. And this is true whether or not we see a Trump victory. We’ll have to work in that world as we do now, with an understanding that we will not conquer by destroying an enemy but by being who we are called to be. <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Personally, we’ve contributed, voted, and spoken as clearly as we can in the networks and relationships we have. But our ‘heroes’ aren’t the ones who overthrew a tyranny. Our ‘heroes’ are those who cared and sustained even while marginalized and attacked. ‘Lest Innocent Blood be Shed’ is an account of a village that sheltered Jews in France – and did so while being gentle with the Vichy forces. That led to warnings before raids as even those in the Vichy regime chose to care.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Again, FWIW.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Bill<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> James Wiegel <jfwiegel@yahoo.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 28, 2024 8:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net><br><b>Cc:</b> w.schlesinger@pvida.net; Mari Crocker <maricrocker@gmail.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Oe List ...] bizarre<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Watching the world series, I am hit by ads similar to the post forwarded by Susan — 3 1/2 years in office and things didn’t get done and now they will —I dont know how to respond to that … help<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt">Jim Wiegel</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="p1"><span class="s1">“…the long work</span><br><span class="s1">of turning their lives</span><br><span class="s1">into a celebration</span><br><span class="s1">is not easy. Come </span><span style="font-size:19.0pt">and let us talk“. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="p1"><span style="font-size:19.0pt">The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Oct 28, 2024, at 5:00 PM, Mari Crocker via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Amen! Dear friend, Bill. Thank you for this, and many other insightful comments you have shared over the years. Fond memories of the time Joe and I spent with your family, way back, when you were discerning your call. Fondly, Marilyn<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 28, 2024, at 7:22 PM, <<a href="mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net">w.schlesinger@pvida.net</a>> <<a href="mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net">w.schlesinger@pvida.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The vice-presidential candidate studied Rene Girard’s work – and betrayed it. He’s taken mimetic desire (I want what I see others having) and scapegoating (if we get rid of ‘them’ we’ll solve our problems, so let us link arms and attack ‘them’) as recipes for victory instead of the driver for and betrayal of innocent suffering that Girard describes. <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Trump creates the incredibly powerful tool that ended up crucifying Jesus – and in so doing, disclosed the horror and emptiness of that for the future. And as has been seen, when one ‘they’ has been disposed, the tool must find another – and turns on itself in a cannibalistic process of eating its own. Thus the ‘RINO’ charge.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Rubbing raw the sores of discontent can lead to this kind of destruction – and in an angry rejection of other values. Attacking it in kind only strengthens the method. Unfortunately, innocent suffering is the only tool that stops it – at cost. Thus the nonviolence movements of Gandhi and MLK Jr. and others…<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My two cents.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Bill Schlesinger<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor;border-image: none"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>OE <<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net"><span style="color:#954F72">oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</span></a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mari Crocker via OE<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, October 28, 2024 5:06 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Order Ecumenical Community <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net"><span style="color:#954F72">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</span></a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Mari Crocker <<a href="mailto:maricrocker@gmail.com"><span style="color:#954F72">maricrocker@gmail.com</span></a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Oe List ...] bizarre<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi W.J and other colleagues<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I appreciate your analysis, and would add to your assessment of a “cultural backlash against cultural change” and “the perpetuation of the ancient archetype of female subservience,” the side-effects (like those of a deleterious drug) of "the abused woman syndrome".<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My sister typifies the abused woman, who continued to submit to abuse by “staying in the marriage for the sake of the kids", and when she shook loose of marital abuse, she submitted to abuse by her sons, who of course learned from the role model of their father. One son did it by direct physical and emotional demeaning; the other by distancing himself geographically and abdicating any “hands-on” support to his mother when she was diagnosed with dementia, save for an occasional phone call.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">However, despite her dementia, my sister cast her absentee ballot for Kamala. Even with dementia she saw the light.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Marilyn<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 28, 2024, at 5:45 PM, W. J. via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net"><span style="color:#954F72">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div id="ydp84878f09yiv8394851414"><div><div><div id="ydp84878f09yiv8394851414ydpc2062d29yiv4060214014"><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We're in the closing days of the most bizarre U.S. election campaign in my memory. According to Barack, N.C. Lt. Gov. Robinson, the Repugnant candidate for governor, is a self-described "Black Nazi" who wants to bring back slavery.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I know that one's hard to beat!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But it gets worse! </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Robinson will be defeated on November 5, rather than riding into the governor's mansion on the coattails of Trump's predicted N.C. victory.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But here's what's worse: </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Trump could narrowly win in the electoral college while losing the popular vote.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Or he could narrowly lose the election, refuse to concede, and contest the election by casting doubt on its legitimacy and creating chaos in the electoral college, throwing the election to the House of Representatives.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The critical voter block that will guarantee either outcome are female Trump voters, almost all of whom are white, and most of whom are not college graduates and are predominantly postmenopausal.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This raises what is for me a burning question: why would<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>any woman</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>vote for Trump?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And especially any woman who could conceive?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Why would any woman not deeply understand that she is personally under threat the second<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>any other woman</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>is personally under threat?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">As well as being a member of a large group that is now directly under attack?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I just don't get it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So, given the racial and gender gap in the American electorate, even if<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>every</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>white male voted for Donald Trump, he would<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>have to lose</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if every female plus every person of color voted for Kamala. Right?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Based on this logic, the reality that I just can't predict that Trump will lose is deeply disturbing.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So I've tried to plumb the mystery of why<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>any</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>female (including my sister, who has voted for Trump twice before) would be determined to vote for Trump despite all the indisputable evidence that electing Trump in 2024 would be disastrous.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I think it comes down to this:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>a cultural backlash against global change that is perceived as both virtually inevitable and threatening to the survival of their traditional female gender identity roles.</b> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This perception of a diffuse but global threat to their sense of security in their traditional sense of self can lead female Trump voters to unconsciously self-destructive behavior, in that they can vote for Trump while at the same hating him personally as the embodiment of a threatening male dominance that they have had to put up with in their intimate familial relationships.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In short, females voting for Trump perpetuate the ancient archetype of female subservience.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In my humble opinion!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So why are any female voters so profoundly stuck in this personal dilemma? Of rebelling against the dominance of a male establishment by voting for a fascist wanna-be dictator who exudes a shrunken and impotent sense of male dominance while he attacks the American Constitution?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Perhaps those of you who are female can see more deeply into this contradiction than I can manage. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The best I can suggest is to place this existential disturbance somewhere in the area of "cultural impoverishment", and perhaps in the category of being "spiritually vulnerable" to what we used to call "brainwashing". And thus resistant to reality-based messages that contradict personal beliefs that are determined by a myth system.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I invite your responses.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And if you're a registered voter, don't neglect to vote!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Marshall</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Finally, I just can't get why any woman in our group would insist on trashing Kamala. Yet here's what Susan Fertig posted on Facebook:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><457488282_2891520291010734_7975706897851416784_n.jpg></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">P.S. Maybe Trump thinks of the electoral college as another iteration of Trump University! A scam he can manipulate to get what he wants.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><457488282_2891520291010734_7975706897851416784_n.jpg>_______________________________________________<br>OE mailing list<br><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net"><span style="color:#954F72">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</span></a><br><a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net&source=gmail-imap&ust=1730774139000000&usg=AOvVaw0YbbLh1LlRexTn9X0qMwDL"><span style="color:#954F72">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This transmission may contain confidential information belonging to the sender that is legally privileged and proprietary and may be subject to protection under the law, including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). 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