<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Colleagues,<div><ul class="gmail-summary-list" style="padding-left:16px;color:rgb(43,43,43);font-family:Roboto,Arial,Sans-sarif;font-size:17px"><li style="font-size:18px;line-height:28px;margin:10px 0px">Trump said it's "unfair" for his kids to be included in investigations into Jan. 6 and his company.</li><li style="font-size:18px;line-height:28px;margin:10px 0px">His niece, Mary Trump, said he was being hypocritical, citing his attacks on Biden's son Hunter.</li><li style="font-size:18px;line-height:28px;margin:10px 0px">"His double standard is grotesque," she said, adding that Hunter never worked for the government.</li></ul><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">A.M. Noel</div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 9:46 PM Richard and Maria Maguire via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism</p>
<p>Thanks Dharma for your question about the RS1 comments about
stoicism. Yes, the RS1 comments about a number of things were in
relation to how they were understood in our current culture.
Besides "stoicism" another term was "meditation" (misunderstood as
"navel gazing"). Maybe there were others. I also used to think
that "stocism" was like the British "stiff upper lip" or the
Australian "she'll be right". In the meantime I have learned that
it appears to be about being an authentic human being in the
situation you are in. People can learn a lot about stoicism and
the stoics on this website for instance.
<a href="https://www.holstee.com/blogs/mindful-matter/stoicism-101-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-stoicism-stoic-philosophy-and-the-stoics" target="_blank">https://www.holstee.com/blogs/mindful-matter/stoicism-101-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-stoicism-stoic-philosophy-and-the-stoics</a>.
<br>
</p>
<p>Another term in popular culture that RS1 did not talk about but
could have was "epicurean", understood as seeking out the most
desirable things for yourself. This was also a misunderstanding
of the philosophy, which emphasised that the good life was being
in commmunity and living on "enough", rather than luxury and
consumption. I learned from a documentary by contemporary
philosopher Alain de Boutton that an epicurean king in ancient
Asia Minor put an inscription on the wall of the marketplace which
is still visible. It went something like this, "Be aware that
nothing you can buy here will give you happiness"<br>
</p>
<p>I realize from things like these that we can have many more
"ancient friends" than is generally realized. </p>
<p>From the perspective of 60 years after my first encounter with
RS1, I realize that the use of those terms and others back then
was polemical, intended to close off escapes that people were
trapped in and prevented real living of the life you have now. <br>
</p>
<p>Best wishes</p>
<p>Richard Maguire<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 22/01/2022 6:40 am,
<a href="mailto:oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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Today's Topics:
1. Stoicism (Dharmalingam Vinasithamby)
2. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (James Wiegel)
3. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (Dharmalingam Vinasithamby)
4. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (Milan Hamilton)
5. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (Nancy Trask)
6. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (Beret Griffith)
7. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (Jim)
8. Re: [Dialogue] Stoicism (Diann McCabe)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 00:27:15 +0000 (UTC)
From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
To: OE Listserve <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>, Dialogue List
<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Subject: [Oe List ...] Stoicism
Message-ID: <a href="mailto:1071180527.308516.1642724835413@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank"><1071180527.308516.1642724835413@mail.yahoo.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dear colleagues,
I need help with an idea I?m trying to sort out. If you have the time and inclination, I would love to hear from you on the following:?
Saying Yes to life and Stoicism. Stoicism seems to be understood as a relationship to life where you keep going on despite the odds. There is also an inuendo that this may not be humanly possible and that internal pressures will eventually cause the person to crash. What I want to know is, was that the Stoicism that Zeno founded or merely a degraded understanding? Why did we as an Order cast it in a negative light? What was our beef with it? Was it a reaction to the degraded form or were we looking at it in its original sense?
regardsDharma
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 03:17:19 +0000 (UTC)
From: James Wiegel <a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><jfwiegel@yahoo.com></a>
To: <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">"dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net"</a> <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>,
<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">"oe@lists.wedgeblade.net"</a> <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>, Karenbueno
<a href="mailto:karenbueno@aol.com" target="_blank"><karenbueno@aol.com></a>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Stoicism
Message-ID: <a href="mailto:2130564282.888309.1642735039425@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank"><2130564282.888309.1642735039425@mail.yahoo.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Does anyone recall (have notes on) the lecture introductions from RS-1?? They were quick and insightful, and I don't find anything in our archives on them . . .?
One intro, maybe on Saturday afternoon -- would have been an intro to the freedom lecture / section / holy spirit / life style was a series of little triangles . . .?
Everyone lives out of some sense of their final reality What am I upagainst in life?? what is my situation?and they have "A word" that releases them -- gives me the capacity to liveand a life style that comes out of that
Anyway, I think one of them was the final reality is bad, and the word was just survive, and the life style was the stoic
I don't quite remember the other ones . . . and the one course I had on philosophy did not emphasize the stoics.
Jim Wiegel ?
Theunknown is what is.? And to be frightened of it is what sends everybodyscurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, allthat.? Unknown is what is.? Accept that it's unknown, and it's plainsailing.? ??John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353
623-363-3277
<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.com</a>
On Thursday, January 20, 2022, 07:54:09 PM MST, Karenbueno via Dialogue <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> wrote:
Stoic: I'm fine.?
Me: Are you telling the truth?Stoic: Well, even if I hurt, what can I do.? I will just bear it.Me: Have you tried what the doctor advised?Stoic: Oh, I probably will soon.? Stop worrying about me.? I'm fine.
Another day--Stoic: I don't see how we need to worry about climate change.? It will destroy us and the rest of life on the planet soon.Me: But shouldn't we do a few actions that might help.Stoic:? Oh, we are too far gone.? The oceans are rising, the ice is about gone.? We might as well just enjoy the life we have.Me: but what about our kids and grandkids and their kids?Stoic:? Look.? We are human.? The planet it too far gone.? We may as well just accept it.
Another day--Stoic: Well, I think we have gone as far as we can to abolish racism in the United States.Me: I think there is still a lot of suffering from racism.? I think we should find some way to pay reparations.Stoic: You pay for it.? I have some other things I want to do with our money.
Another day--Me: Did you hear about how the Wisconsin government is giving back some of their land to the Indians?Stoic: Oh for Pete Sake.? That war is long over, and we are getting along fine.
Another day--Stoic: Listen to those shovels!? They are finishing my work!Me: No, honey, they are digging your grave.
Another day--Me: They say that faith is belief in things not seen.Stoic: Ha.? Sounds pretty magic to me!Me: But if you trust that the creative power of God is in charge, you can have hope that the future is open, and we can act!Stoic: Naptime now.
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message-----
From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via Dialogue <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
To: OE Listserve <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>; Dialogue List <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Cc: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2022 5:27 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Stoicism
Dear colleagues,
I need help with an idea I?m trying to sort out. If you have the time and inclination, I would love to hear from you on the following:?
Saying Yes to life and Stoicism. Stoicism seems to be understood as a relationship to life where you keep going on despite the odds. There is also an inuendo that this may not be humanly possible and that internal pressures will eventually cause the person to crash. What I want to know is, was that the Stoicism that Zeno founded or merely a degraded understanding? Why did we as an Order cast it in a negative light? What was our beef with it? Was it a reaction to the degraded form or were we looking at it in its original sense?
regardsDharma_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 06:20:15 +0000 (UTC)
From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
To: <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">"dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net"</a> <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>,
<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">"oe@lists.wedgeblade.net"</a> <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Stoicism
Message-ID: <a href="mailto:945319551.358776.1642746015855@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank"><945319551.358776.1642746015855@mail.yahoo.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks everyone for your responses. Some of these touched on what is happening to our planet, which is also what triggered my question.?It is clear that we have pushed our biosphere over the tipping point into a trajectory that will bring mass extinctions, perhaps even that of our species, in its wake. Whatever we do cannot change this, at least till after several decades. So whatever good we do, we won?t be around to see its result.So the question for me is what does it mean to say Yes to life in this situation and to live out of that stance. To use a metaphor, if we are led to the gallows, can we approach it saying Yes to what our life has been and what is going happen? By ?can we?, I mean how do we generate the courage and spirit for this.?A related question, how do we tell others what is in store truthfully and yet not leave them without hope or drive??If we live like this, could it be described (in a positive way) as Stoicism? I remember we seemed to have reservations about thi
s during our RS1 courses. But I?m not sure whether they were about the popular understanding of Stoicism, as Karen illustrates in her email, or something deeper in that philosophy.?
Dharma
On Friday, 21 January 2022, 11:17:28 am MYT, James Wiegel via OE <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> wrote:
Does anyone recall (have notes on) the lecture introductions from RS-1?? They were quick and insightful, and I don't find anything in our archives on them . . .?
One intro, maybe on Saturday afternoon -- would have been an intro to the freedom lecture / section / holy spirit / life style was a series of little triangles . . .?
Everyone lives out of some sense of their final reality What am I upagainst in life?? what is my situation?and they have "A word" that releases them -- gives me the capacity to liveand a life style that comes out of that
Anyway, I think one of them was the final reality is bad, and the word was just survive, and the life style was the stoic
I don't quite remember the other ones . . . and the one course I had on philosophy did not emphasize the stoics.
Jim Wiegel ?
Theunknown is what is.? And to be frightened of it is what sends everybodyscurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, allthat.? Unknown is what is.? Accept that it's unknown, and it's plainsailing.? ??John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353
623-363-3277
<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.com</a>
On Thursday, January 20, 2022, 07:54:09 PM MST, Karenbueno via Dialogue <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> wrote:
Stoic: I'm fine.?
Me: Are you telling the truth?Stoic: Well, even if I hurt, what can I do.? I will just bear it.Me: Have you tried what the doctor advised?Stoic: Oh, I probably will soon.? Stop worrying about me.? I'm fine.
Another day--Stoic: I don't see how we need to worry about climate change.? It will destroy us and the rest of life on the planet soon.Me: But shouldn't we do a few actions that might help.Stoic:? Oh, we are too far gone.? The oceans are rising, the ice is about gone.? We might as well just enjoy the life we have.Me: but what about our kids and grandkids and their kids?Stoic:? Look.? We are human.? The planet it too far gone.? We may as well just accept it.
Another day--Stoic: Well, I think we have gone as far as we can to abolish racism in the United States.Me: I think there is still a lot of suffering from racism.? I think we should find some way to pay reparations.Stoic: You pay for it.? I have some other things I want to do with our money.
Another day--Me: Did you hear about how the Wisconsin government is giving back some of their land to the Indians?Stoic: Oh for Pete Sake.? That war is long over, and we are getting along fine.
Another day--Stoic: Listen to those shovels!? They are finishing my work!Me: No, honey, they are digging your grave.
Another day--Me: They say that faith is belief in things not seen.Stoic: Ha.? Sounds pretty magic to me!Me: But if you trust that the creative power of God is in charge, you can have hope that the future is open, and we can act!Stoic: Naptime now.
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message-----
From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via Dialogue <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
To: OE Listserve <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>; Dialogue List <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Cc: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2022 5:27 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Stoicism
Dear colleagues,
I need help with an idea I?m trying to sort out. If you have the time and inclination, I would love to hear from you on the following:?
Saying Yes to life and Stoicism. Stoicism seems to be understood as a relationship to life where you keep going on despite the odds. There is also an inuendo that this may not be humanly possible and that internal pressures will eventually cause the person to crash. What I want to know is, was that the Stoicism that Zeno founded or merely a degraded understanding? Why did we as an Order cast it in a negative light? What was our beef with it? Was it a reaction to the degraded form or were we looking at it in its original sense?
regardsDharma_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
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<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net</a>
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 22:49:21 -0800
From: Milan Hamilton <a href="mailto:mellowmilan2@gmail.com" target="_blank"><mellowmilan2@gmail.com></a>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Cc: <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>, Dharmalingam Vinasithamby
<a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Stoicism
Message-ID: <a href="mailto:A7F062F9-75A4-4A74-9016-FCE0A89EB48E@gmail.com" target="_blank"><A7F062F9-75A4-4A74-9016-FCE0A89EB48E@gmail.com></a>
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I majored in philosophy also and especially Studied Kierkegaard with one of the preeminent American teachers of SK, But can?t say I got much beyond the surface until RS-1. I do think there was more depth to Stoicism as a philosophy than hearing the word elicits in our psyche. But as to offering a way into the question Dharma is raising, I would suggest reading Jem Bendell?s Deep Adaptation paper and if interested getting into the conversation on the Deep Adaptation Forum; secondly, Michael Dowd?s ?Post Doom? series of 78 fifty minute interviews on You Tube with all sorts of climate scientists and writers, as well as some of his own videos; third, check out Joanna Macy?s ?The Work that Reconnects.? These are some resources we have found helpful to avoid getting stuck in one or more of the philosophy rabbit holes,Stoicism being only one of them.
Humbly, Milan H.
Sent from my iPad
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>On Jan 20, 2022, at 10:20 PM, Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> wrote:
?
Thanks everyone for your responses. Some of these touched on what is happening to our planet, which is also what triggered my question.
It is clear that we have pushed our biosphere over the tipping point into a trajectory that will bring mass extinctions, perhaps even that of our species, in its wake. Whatever we do cannot change this, at least till after several decades. So whatever good we do, we won?t be around to see its result.
So the question for me is what does it mean to say Yes to life in this situation and to live out of that stance. To use a metaphor, if we are led to the gallows, can we approach it saying Yes to what our life has been and what is going happen? By ?can we?, I mean how do we generate the courage and spirit for this.
A related question, how do we tell others what is in store truthfully and yet not leave them without hope or drive?
If we live like this, could it be described (in a positive way) as Stoicism? I remember we seemed to have reservations about this during our RS1 courses. But I?m not sure whether they were about the popular understanding of Stoicism, as Karen illustrates in her email, or something deeper in that philosophy.
Dharma
On Friday, 21 January 2022, 11:17:28 am MYT, James Wiegel via OE <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> wrote:
Does anyone recall (have notes on) the lecture introductions from RS-1? They were quick and insightful, and I don't find anything in our archives on them . . .
One intro, maybe on Saturday afternoon -- would have been an intro to the freedom lecture / section / holy spirit / life style was a series of little triangles . . .
Everyone lives out of some sense of their final reality What am I upagainst in life? what is my situation?
and they have "A word" that releases them -- gives me the capacity to live
and a life style that comes out of that
Anyway, I think one of them was the final reality is bad, and the word was just survive, and the life style was the stoic
I don't quite remember the other ones . . . and the one course I had on philosophy did not emphasize the stoics.
Jim Wiegel
The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's plain sailing. John Lennon
401 North Beverly Way,Tolleson, Arizona 85353
623-363-3277
<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" target="_blank">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.com</a>
On Thursday, January 20, 2022, 07:54:09 PM MST, Karenbueno via Dialogue <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> wrote:
Stoic: I'm fine.
Me: Are you telling the truth?
Stoic: Well, even if I hurt, what can I do. I will just bear it.
Me: Have you tried what the doctor advised?
Stoic: Oh, I probably will soon. Stop worrying about me. I'm fine.
Another day--
Stoic: I don't see how we need to worry about climate change. It will destroy us and the rest of life on the planet soon.
Me: But shouldn't we do a few actions that might help.
Stoic: Oh, we are too far gone. The oceans are rising, the ice is about gone. We might as well just enjoy the life we have.
Me: but what about our kids and grandkids and their kids?
Stoic: Look. We are human. The planet it too far gone. We may as well just accept it.
Another day--
Stoic: Well, I think we have gone as far as we can to abolish racism in the United States.
Me: I think there is still a lot of suffering from racism. I think we should find some way to pay reparations.
Stoic: You pay for it. I have some other things I want to do with our money.
Another day--
Me: Did you hear about how the Wisconsin government is giving back some of their land to the Indians?
Stoic: Oh for Pete Sake. That war is long over, and we are getting along fine.
Another day--
Stoic: Listen to those shovels! They are finishing my work!
Me: No, honey, they are digging your grave.
Another day--
Me: They say that faith is belief in things not seen.
Stoic: Ha. Sounds pretty magic to me!
Me: But if you trust that the creative power of God is in charge, you can have hope that the future is open, and we can act!
Stoic: Naptime now.
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message-----
From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via Dialogue <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
To: OE Listserve <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>; Dialogue List <a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Cc: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2022 5:27 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Stoicism
Dear colleagues,
I need help with an idea I?m trying to sort out. If you have the time and inclination, I would love to hear from you on the following:
Saying Yes to life and Stoicism. Stoicism seems to be understood as a relationship to life where you keep going on despite the odds. There is also an inuendo that this may not be humanly possible and that internal pressures will eventually cause the person to crash. What I want to know is, was that the Stoicism that Zeno founded or merely a degraded understanding? Why did we as an Order cast it in a negative light? What was our beef with it? Was it a reaction to the degraded form or were we looking at it in its original sense?
regards
Dharma
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 07:48:07 -0600
From: Nancy Trask <a href="mailto:nlt462@gmail.com" target="_blank"><nlt462@gmail.com></a>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Stoicism
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Dharma and all, it?s a very timely push for deeper understanding ? so glad
you raised this angle on the topic. Thanks also to Milan for sharing
resources from Jim Bendell, Michael Dowd, and Joanna Macy. I will have a
look. The YouTube series of 78 interviews sounds fascinating. And I had
recently happened on a presentation about adaptation, which has stuck with
me.
Could consider starting a new study series on some of these resources.
Nancy Trask
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 12:49 AM Milan Hamilton via OE <
<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I majored in philosophy also and especially Studied Kierkegaard with one
of the preeminent American teachers of SK, But can?t say I got much beyond
the surface until RS-1. I do think there was more depth to Stoicism as a
philosophy than hearing the word elicits in our psyche. But as to offering
a way into the question Dharma is raising, I would suggest reading Jem
Bendell?s Deep Adaptation paper and if interested getting into the
conversation on the Deep Adaptation Forum; secondly, Michael Dowd?s ?Post
Doom? series of 78 fifty minute interviews on You Tube with all sorts of
climate scientists and writers, as well as some of his own videos; third,
check out Joanna Macy?s ?The Work that Reconnects.? These are some
resources we have found helpful to avoid getting stuck in one or more of
the philosophy rabbit holes,Stoicism being only one of them.
Humbly, Milan H.
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 20, 2022, at 10:20 PM, Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via OE <
<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:
?
Thanks everyone for your responses. Some of these touched on what is
happening to our planet, which is also what triggered my question.
It is clear that we have pushed our biosphere over the tipping point into
a trajectory that will bring mass extinctions, perhaps even that of our
species, in its wake. Whatever we do cannot change this, at least till
after several decades. So whatever good we do, we won?t be around to see
its result.
So the question for me is what does it mean to say Yes to life in this
situation and to live out of that stance. To use a metaphor, if we are led
to the gallows, can we approach it saying Yes to what our life has been and
what is going happen? By ?can we?, I mean how do we generate the courage
and spirit for this.
A related question, how do we tell others what is in store truthfully and
yet not leave them without hope or drive?
If we live like this, could it be described (in a positive way) as
Stoicism? I remember we seemed to have reservations about this during our
RS1 courses. But I?m not sure whether they were about the popular
understanding of Stoicism, as Karen illustrates in her email, or something
deeper in that philosophy.
Dharma
On Friday, 21 January 2022, 11:17:28 am MYT, James Wiegel via OE <
<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:
Does anyone recall (have notes on) the lecture introductions from RS-1?
They were quick and insightful, and I don't find anything in our archives
on them . . .
One intro, maybe on Saturday afternoon -- would have been an intro to the
freedom lecture / section / holy spirit / life style was a series of little
triangles . . .
Everyone lives out of some sense of their final reality What am I
upagainst in life? what is my situation?
and they have "A word" that releases them -- gives me the capacity to live
and a life style that comes out of that
Anyway, I think one of them was the final reality is bad, and the word was
just survive, and the life style was the stoic
I don't quite remember the other ones . . . and the one course I had on
philosophy did not emphasize the stoics.
Jim Wiegel <a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123" target="_blank"><http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=123></a>
The unknown is what is. And to be frightened of it is what sends
everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love,
hate, all that. Unknown is what is. Accept that it's unknown, and it's
plain sailing. John Lennon
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On Thursday, January 20, 2022, 07:54:09 PM MST, Karenbueno via Dialogue <
<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:
Stoic: I'm fine.
Me: Are you telling the truth?
Stoic: Well, even if I hurt, what can I do. I will just bear it.
Me: Have you tried what the doctor advised?
Stoic: Oh, I probably will soon. Stop worrying about me. I'm fine.
Another day--
Stoic: I don't see how we need to worry about climate change. It will
destroy us and the rest of life on the planet soon.
Me: But shouldn't we do a few actions that might help.
Stoic: Oh, we are too far gone. The oceans are rising, the ice is about
gone. We might as well just enjoy the life we have.
Me: but what about our kids and grandkids and their kids?
Stoic: Look. We are human. The planet it too far gone. We may as well
just accept it.
Another day--
Stoic: Well, I think we have gone as far as we can to abolish racism in
the United States.
Me: I think there is still a lot of suffering from racism. I think we
should find some way to pay reparations.
Stoic: You pay for it. I have some other things I want to do with our
money.
Another day--
Me: Did you hear about how the Wisconsin government is giving back some of
their land to the Indians?
Stoic: Oh for Pete Sake. That war is long over, and we are getting along
fine.
Another day--
Stoic: Listen to those shovels! They are finishing my work!
Me: No, honey, they are digging your grave.
Another day--
Me: They say that faith is belief in things not seen.
Stoic: Ha. Sounds pretty magic to me!
Me: But if you trust that the creative power of God is in charge, you can
have hope that the future is open, and we can act!
Stoic: Naptime now.
Karen Bueno
-----Original Message-----
From: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby via Dialogue <
<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
To: OE Listserve <a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>; Dialogue List <
<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
Cc: Dharmalingam Vinasithamby <a href="mailto:dvinasithamby@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><dvinasithamby@yahoo.com></a>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2022 5:27 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Stoicism
Dear colleagues,
I need help with an idea I?m trying to sort out. If you have the time and
inclination, I would love to hear from you on the following:
Saying Yes to life and Stoicism. Stoicism seems to be understood as a
relationship to life where you keep going on despite the odds. There is
also an inuendo that this may not be humanly possible and that internal
pressures will eventually cause the person to crash. What I want to know
is, was that the Stoicism that Zeno founded or merely a degraded
understanding? Why did we as an Order cast it in a negative light? What was
our beef with it? Was it a reaction to the degraded form or were we looking
at it in its original sense?
regards
Dharma
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