<div dir="ltr">Thanks everyone for your contributions. I am so glad to have this conversation tool available again! <div><br></div><div>Bill, I took your contribution on prayer and language to a meeting I attended last night, since it was quite apropos to our conversation of the evening. Folks really appreciated the input.</div><div><br></div><div>Doris Hahn</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 10:54 AM, William Salmon via OE <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff" vlink="purple">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Susan, <em>et al</em>, </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> Something to consider. The
wonderful thing about our personal experiences is that we all look at the same
reality, but we bring to this task a set of prescription glasses (lenses?) that
colors our perception of the reality we all experience. This makes the task a
personal one. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> This is why the quadrilateral of
John Wesley is helpful. Wesley believed we need to ask four questions about any
task or conversation about that task: scripture, tradition, reason and
experience. This provided those who use these four dynamics to be kept
from being dilatants. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> The following paragraph will
explain this process: </font></div>
<div><span style="TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;BACKGROUND-COLOR:rgb(255,255,255);TEXT-INDENT:0px;DISPLAY:inline!important;FONT:14px/21px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;WHITE-SPACE:normal;FLOAT:none;LETTER-SPACING:normal;COLOR:rgb(85,85,85);WORD-SPACING:0px"><font size="2"><em>The phrase which has relatively recently come into use to describe
the principal factors that John Wesley believed illuminate the core of the
Christian faith for the believer. Wesley did not formulate the succinct
statement now commonly referred to as the Wesley Quadrilateral. Building on the
Anglican theological tradition, Wesley added a fourth emphasis, experience. The
resulting four components or "sides" of the quadrilateral are (1) Scripture, (2)
tradition, (3) reason, and (4) experience. For United Methodists, Scripture is
considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is
experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the
past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's
understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own
life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian
faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring
the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the
Christian faith and the required response of worship and
service.</em></font></span></div>
<div align="right"><font size="1" face="Arial">(Source: A Dictionary for United
Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, </font></div>
<div align="right"><font size="1" face="Arial">Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by
Permission.)</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> I like this and I use it often.
It allows me to identify my personal experience, and then to measure my
perceptions by </font><font size="2" face="Arial">the other dynamics; this
keeps me from getting arrogant; the "selfy-age often strikes.
</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> Weskey said that
"scripture" was prime. However, there are those among us who affirm that
"experience" could be prime and then supported or challenged by tradition,
reason and the scriptures. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> Thanks for sharing.
</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> Bill </font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----------------</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">Susan
Fertig via OE</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au" href="mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au" target="_blank">Isobel and Jim Bishop</a> ; <a title="oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">Order
EcumenicalCommunity</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 19, 2016 10:56
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Oe List ...] Listserve on
prayer, 2-story universe, etc.</div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt">If we’re operating
out of experience, mine is just different than yours. So, just as I’m not
likely to change anybody’s mind on this listserv, none of the comments here
are likely to change mine. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Someone actually
accused people who believe what I believe of “shallowness” and “superstition.”
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Interesting that in
my church of about 3,000 congregants, some of the greatest minds in a city
rife with intellect, scientific or from other disciplines, engage with God in
a way you’d all probably laugh about. But of course we are all deficient
intellectually in the minds of people who have dismissed this way of looking
at relationship with God, and Christ, and the Holy
Spirit.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Superstition is
avoiding black cats and walking under ladders. It bears no resemblance to my
faith.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt">My experience of
the other world is as real as my hand in front of my
face.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Papyrus;COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:16pt">Susan<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Papyrus;COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Susan
Fertig-Dykes<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Papyrus;COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:8pt">(personal email
account)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Papyrus;COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:8pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Papyrus;FONT-SIZE:9pt">And
the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought .
Isaiah 58:11</span></i><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Papyrus;FONT-SIZE:9pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Comic Sans MS';COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:8pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Comic Sans MS';COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:8pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="BACKGROUND:white" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:9pt">Protect
against email address harvesting:<br>Use "BCC" when sending to multiple
addresses; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="BACKGROUND:white" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:9pt">delete
senders’ E-Mail addresses when forwarding.</span><span style="COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:9pt"><br><br><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="BACKGROUND:white" class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:9pt">NOTE: I won’t be offended if you ask me
to remove you from my emails.</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Comic Sans MS';COLOR:#080808;FONT-SIZE:8pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#e1e1e1 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri',sans-serif;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> OE
[mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe-bounces@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Isobel and Jim
Bishop via OE<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 19, 2016 10:27
PM<br><b>To:</b> Jack Gilles <<a href="mailto:jackcgilles@gmail.com" target="_blank">jackcgilles@gmail.com</a>>; Order Ecumenical
Community <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Oe List ...]
Listserve on prayer, 2-story universe, etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Isobel
and Jim Bishop<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><a href="mailto:isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au" target="_blank">isobeljimbish@optusnet.com.au</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Dear
Folks, especially Jack, <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">I
too am grateful that the list serve is still ticking over! I have
observed over the years I have been reading this listserve- that in the
summer months in the northern hemisphere- you all are quieter, and don' t
engage so much.. I have always thought to
myself <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">that
this is because you like to be outdoors, enjoying your summer….? In the winter
months when you don' t go out so much, you seem to stay by your computer more
often and write pearls of wisdom….Just my observation from down
here in Oz.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Yes,
I listened to Joe's lecture and it brought back so many
memories. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">I
thought he described the two storey universe well. I hope that Susan found it
useful. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Nowadays
I think what Joe was saying to me-- can best be described as the
connectedness of ALL of life- both at the very centre of my life,
and in the cosmos, and in the urban, secular everyday life of
connecting with the world and all that is within
it. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">…
and at the edges too. ...the farthest reaches of the planet. I
did notice that the last few words of Joe's talk included ' all of Creation
itself.' This made me realise that Joe was way ahead of his time, talking
about Creation….<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">A
word about prayer… Some time ago, on the list serve there was some
reference to prayer- and Jim Weigel gave a small description of it- as '
leaning to the good'. I don't know if this helps others, but it
helped me at the time, and I still reflect on
these <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">words.
I do feel that good vibes which I empathise about a situation; can bring
gentleness and calmness to a situation, be it a person, or a
situation.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Enough
from me from Leichhardt, an inner west suburb of
Sydney. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Jim
is well- has just had had both his caratacts renewed, and will be
87 next month. I am 80, and still very active. We do lots of walking and
exercises etc., <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">Our
daughter Rebecca, a US citizen, will be voting again in your Election,
I reckon. It is quite scary from this
viewpoint. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">All
the best to y'all,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">and
with grace, peace, and love, <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt">from
Isobel. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica',sans-serif;COLOR:black;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 20/09/2016, at 1:57 AM, Jack Gilles via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP:5pt;MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">There should be a request to share the ability to open.
But if you see a ‘download’ arrow, do that and then download the link that
allows you to listen to Goole.doc sound tracks. I couldn’t open my post as
well, but I did that and it plays just fine. It opens another window with
the player. I hope others find that works for them as
well.<br><br>Jack<br><br><br><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP:5pt;MARGIN-BOTTOM:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 19, 2016, at 10:54, Doris Hahn via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
wrote:<br><br>I tried to access Jack's sharing of JWM on 2-story universe,
but it is locked. How do I get in?<br><br>Doris
Hahn<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>OE mailing
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