<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Bill</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I too use cave metaphor in my second book of poetry. Like to know that you find it useful.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Sarah Buss<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 18, 2016, at 9:35 PM, William Salmon via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23543">
<style></style>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The 144's have informed my inward life for a good
long time. Several years ago, I made a master chart of all nine for the cost of
$30 plus shipping. Several were delivered to Order Colleagues. The dynamic
of PRAYER is located on the DOING pole. For me, this shifts the activity of
prayer from a metaphysical identity to an ontological experience; the intensity
is located in the right/bottom box and reveals that I AM
prayer.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> To wag the tail of the dog again
(and again), in order to speak THE WORD** </font><font size="2" face="Arial">to the post-modern generation (born since 1985) it is necessary to
name life-happenings as experiences that point to an inner reality;
the metaphysical makes no sense to them. What I've discovered is that once it is
established that we have a depth/inner reality then a dialogue can begin. For a
long time, I've used the image of an inner cave to be explored as a handy
metaphor.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> Inner Peace,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> Bill Salmon</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">** THE WORD ALL IS GOOD, THE PRESENT IS A GIFT, THE
PAST IS NOT ONLY FORGIVEN IT IS FORGOTTEN, AND THE FUTURE IS OPEN. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">wes</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">David
Flowers via OE</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a> ; <a title="oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net" href="mailto:oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 18, 2016 4:06
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol
54, Issue 15</div>
<div><br></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>I often think of prayer without ceasing in the context of meditation,
contemplation, and prayer.<br><br></div>meditation - connect with what comes
to you and let go.<br></div>contemplation - connect with creation and
listen.<br></div>prayer - connect with creation in dialogue.<br><br></div>so -
I'm working on listening skills because ..... as a white middle-class male -
the prayers of my generalized historic demographic have not served God's
creation, if one is to notice the condition of our
biosphere.<br><br></div>(meditation for the sake of feeling "better" about a
self-destructing global system is ....... your favorite expletive) <br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 1:27 AM, via OE <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Send OE mailing list submissions to<br>
<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br><br>To
subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br>or,
via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
<a href="mailto:oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-request@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a><br><br>You
can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="mailto:oe-owner@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-owner@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br><br>When
replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re:
Contents of OE digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1.
Re: [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New Reformation,<br>
Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded) (Bill Schlesinger
via OE)<br> 2. Salmon: On prayer (William Salmon via
OE)<br> 3. Re: Responding to Spong on prayer (Adam Thomson via
OE)<br> 4. Re: Responding to Spong on prayer (Paul Schrijnen via
OE)<br><br><br>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br><br>Message:
1<br>Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 09:04:32 -0600<br>From: Bill Schlesinger via OE
<<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>To:
"'zbarley'" <<a href="mailto:zbarley@earthlink.net">zbarley@earthlink.net</a>>,
"'Order Ecumenical<br>
Community'" <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>Subject:
Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New<br>
Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concluded)<br>Message-ID: <048301d210f4$ccad74b0$<wbr>66085e10$@<a href="http://pvida.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">pvida.net</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"<br><br>Not following the disappointment ? sounded like Spong
was echoing the non-magical understanding of prayer. ?These are little more
than the delusions of yesterday that we are now called on to abandon.?
It?s pretty clear that there are a lot of folk who would like a magically
manipulated world and who ask for it. Friend of mine says ?no gambler
avoids superstition. How the cards are held in the hand must influence the
random sequence of events!? Luck, superstitious prayer, magic ? or
?the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of sharing
with another the gifts of living, loving and being.? Sounds a
lot like the prayer short course from RS-1 to me.<br><br><br><br>Bill
Schlesinger<br><br><br><br>From: OE [mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>]
On Behalf Of zbarley via OE<br>Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:50
AM<br>To: James Wiegel; Order Ecumenical Community<br>Subject: Re: [Oe List
...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part XXXV ?
Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)<br><br><br><br>Ken and I just talked about
Spong's latest and are disappointed in him on this topic. I have trouble
believing there are people who ask a Being in the sky to intervene. But then
I have trouble with people who believe Trump.<br><br><br><br>Thanks for the
prayer words - we had good poets amongst
us.<br><br><br><br>Zoe<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Sent from my Verizon
Wireless 4G LTE smartphone<br><br><br><br>-------- Original message
--------<br>From: James Wiegel via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>Date:
2016/09/17 7:56 AM (GMT-07:00)<br>To: Ellie Stock <<a href="mailto:elliestock@aol.com">elliestock@aol.com</a>>, Colleague
Dialogue <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>><br>Cc:
<a href="mailto:oe@wedgeblade.net">oe@wedgeblade.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [Oe
List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part XXXV ?
Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)<br><br>Trying to make sense of Spongs call
for reformation and what is really there. Read this section on Prayer,
remembered the prayer song. See below. Anyone recall the short
courses on prayer from the RS1?<br><br><br>PRAYER<br>Tune: Aravah
(Hebrew)<br><br>When I see my life<br>ever is torn<br><br>And loved
ones<br>violated<br><br>And my failures are<br>daily reborn<br><br>Then
sorrow with<br>heaven is weighted<br><br>Yet I can gladly em-<br>brace every
hour<br><br>And praise God?s<br>inequity<br><br>I can sing of my
blessings<br>that shower<br><br>My joy<br>inexpressible be.<br><br><br>Now
here I stand<br>battered to and fro<br><br>Now here I stand<br>battered to
and fro<br><br>The chaos within<br>yet surrounding<br><br>I cry out my want
and<br>the lack that I know<br><br>And power from with-<br>out feel
uplifting.<br><br><br>The weight of the world<br>on my shoulders I
bear<br><br>I echo the<br>voices that cry<br><br>The path of Mankind<br>with
my agony bent<br><br>And my God I?ll fight on<br>?til I die<br><br>Jim
Wiegel<br>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353<br>Tel.
011-623-936-8671 or <a href="tel:011-623-363-3277" value="+6233633277">011-623-363-3277</a><br><a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a><br><a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.<wbr>com</a><br><br>"We are no
longer living in an era of change. We are living in a change of
era." Francis<br><br>Upcoming public course opportunities click
here<br><a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/?<wbr>page_id=10</a><br>For
online registration go to <a href="http://www.top-training.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.top-training.net</a><br><br>The AZ
ToP? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting again on
Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003<br>AICP Planners:
14.5 CM for all ToP? courses<br><br>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie
Stock via Dialogue <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>>
wrote:<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>>
HOMEPAGE MY PROFILE
ESSAY ARCHIVE MESSAGE BOARDS
CALENDAR<br>><br>> Charting a New Reformation<br>> Part XXXV
? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)<br>> Before prayer can be made real our
understanding of God, coupled with our understanding of how the world works,
must be newly defined. Before prayer can have meaning, it must be built on
an honest sharing of life. Cornelia, the woman about whom I wrote last week,
did that for me. Before prayer can be discussed in the age in which we live,
it must be drained of its presumed manipulative magic. It must find
expression in the reality of who we are, not in the details of what we do.
These were the insights that my third story gave to me as I walked through
what was probably the darkest period of my life, the years 1981-1989. The
learning curve was steep; the depth of despair was real. I invite you now to
enter that time period with me and to walk through that experience as I did.
This narrative is true, personal and painful. I have spoken verbally of it
before. I have not written about it. Doing so even now makes me feel quite
vulnerable.<br>><br>> Around Christmas of 1981, my first wife, Joan
Lydia Ketner Spong, was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer. She had never
been fond of doctors and so had postponed seeing one until she felt her
symptoms had become critical. She had discovered a lump in her breast much
earlier and had decided to tell no one for a very long time. It grew very
slowly causing her to assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be benign. It
remained her secret. That December as the holidays came into focus, however,
the tumor erupted externally and became a draining sore. When that occurred,
I became alarmed and got her as quickly as I could to a doctor. After an
examination and later a biopsy, we heard the verdict. She had a stage four
malignancy. Immediate surgery was required and massive chemotherapy would
have to follow the surgery. No guarantees were offered even then. In fact we
were told that about two years of life might be all that we could reasonably
expect. We sank into the shock of that<br>
diagnosis.<br>><br>> At that
time I was an active and fairly high-profile public figure as the bishop of
Newark. We had been engaged in great controversies over the full acceptance
in both church and society of gay, lesbian, transgender and bi-sexual
persons. I was clearly identified in this fight and my name was widely
recognized from press and television coverage. People in public life learn
quickly that they really do not, perhaps cannot, have a private life. Within
minutes, it seemed, the news of both my wife?s diagnosis and her prognosis
spread until it seemed to me as if the whole world knew. From that day on, I
never visited a congregation in my diocese for confirmation that prayers
were not offered publicly for my wife and for me. Prayer groups all over New
Jersey informed us that they were praying for us ? some were Episcopal, some
were Roman Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one thing they all
appeared to have in common was that they knew of the two-year maximum
boundary that pre<br> sumably my wife and I were facing. I did not
resent this invasion of our privacy. I was rather appreciative of their
efforts, as was Joan. Their actions felt supportive and loving. In their own
way, the people were telling us that they really cared for us and, in
whatever way they could, they wanted to help. They were willing in this way
to stand with us, to share in our pain and in our struggle. One never
rejects
love that is so freely offered, even when the form in which it
comes might not be one?s particular style. So Joan and I were carried by
this wave of love from those who reached out to us in what was clearly our
time of need.<br>><br>> The months passed and then the years began to
mount. When we passed the two-year prediction date, and things were still
going positively, I noticed that these prayer groups began to take credit
for my wife?s longevity. In their letters to me, it almost sounded as if
they believed that they had engaged the powers of evil in some profound
contest that pitted them on God?s side, holding back God?s enemies. Their
prayers, they suggested, were pushing back the advance of this demonic
sickness. They were winning the battle and they felt good about their
success. Once again, my response was not to debate the theological
implications of their understanding of prayer, but simply to appreciate the
level of caring that they were offering. It was, at least in its intention,
sustaining. I could not help, however, in the darkness of each night to
wonder about the implications of their understanding of
prayer<br>><br>> ?Suppose,? I thought to myself during a particularly
sleepless time, ?that a member of the City of Newark?s sanitation department
had a wife with cancer.? At that time, Newark, New Jersey, was either at or
very near the top of the list of America?s poorest per capita cities. I
tried to envision just who it was who might occupy the bottom tier of
Newark?s socio-economic status system. My mind settled, whether rightly or
wrongly, on the garbage collector working for Newark?s sanitation
department. So I focused on him.<br>><br>> In this long dark
meditation, I wondered how many prayer groups would have added her name to
their lists. How much public notice would her illness have achieved? If this
couple went to church, perhaps that community might have been aware of their
struggle, but would services have been interrupted with passionate petitions
for healing? Would the gates of heaven have been stormed by massive number
of prayers? Would God, I then wondered, let this man?s wife die more quickly
than my wife? My high public profile and social prominence alone caused more
prayers to be uttered for my wife than for his. Would those prayers be a
factor, I wondered, in either healing or longevity? Does God operate on the
basis of human status? If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I would
immediately become an atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a deity.
This capricious God would be demonic, it seemed to me. The cumulative power
of many people praying existed in the case of my wife on<br> ly because
I was a fairly well known public figure. Is status a factor in what is
thought of as the healing power of God? When John Paul II lingered on his
death bed for so long, the whole world joined in prayer for him. Was that a
factor in his long lingering death? When hurricanes barrel down on a
population center like New Orleans, the cries of millions are lifted
heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many prayers affect the
course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or alter the path of a
disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a tool to be used
by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is true then God
clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for the poor, the
forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes theologically violent,
absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it cannot be that. My
wife lived for six and a half years from her diagnosis in December of 1981
to her death in Aug<br> ust of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that
extension of time, but I did not fully understand then the gift that I was
given. Life is like that. As St. Paul says, we see only ?through a glass
darkly.?<br>><br>> So I put these stories with their varied and
distinctive insights together. Then I seek to draw conclusions about what
prayer means in the 21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a petition
from the weak to the all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot do for
ourselves. Prayer does not bend God?s will to a new conclusion. Prayer does
not bring a cure where there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer does not
create miracles to which we can testify publicly.<br>><br>> These are
little more than the delusions of yesterday that we are now called on to
abandon. They arose out of the childhood of our humanity. Today a new
question emerges, which we must face with honesty. Is prayer only the human
act of last resort? Does praying reflect anything more than the fact that
all else has failed? Why do we say so frequently to people, ?You will be in
my prayers,? when we never stop to pray? Is it not our impotence in the face
of life?s pain that draws us to pretend that we actually possess the power
to make a difference, creating nothing more than a comfortable fantasy land
in which we can hide?<br>><br>> Is my experience, which tells me that
loving, caring and sharing matter, actually real? Can prayer be defined as
something other than this pious activity? Does it have any claim on reality?
Is prayer a holy activity or is it a preparation for a time of engaging in a
holy activity? Increasingly, I am moving to the latter conclusion. It is
life that is holy. It is love that is life-giving. Having the courage to be
all that I can be is the place where God and life come together for me. If
that is so, is not living, loving and being the essence of prayer and
the
meaning of worship? When Paul enjoined us to ?pray without
ceasing? did he mean to engage the activity of praying unceasingly? Or did
he mean that we are to see all of life as a prayer calling the world to
enter that place where life, love and being reveal the meaning of God? Is
Christianity not coming to the place where my ?I? meets another?s ?Thou? and
in that moment God is<br> present?<br>><br>> I pray daily. In my
own way, I bring before the eyes of my mind those I love and thus into my
awareness of the holy in which my life seems to be lived. Do I expect
miracles to occur, lives to be changed or wholeness suddenly to replace
brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more whole, to be set free to
share my life more deeply with others, to be enabled to love beyond my
boundaries and to watch the barriers that divide me from those I once
avoided lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the presence of God, the
act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of sharing with
another the gifts of living, loving and being. Can that understanding of
prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any real difference in our world?
I believe it can, it does and it will.<br>><br>> John Shelby
Spong<br>><br>><br>> Question & Answer<br>> Clifford Hill of
Wheaton, Illinois, writes:<br>><br>><br>> Question:<br>> I am a
member of a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over the years, I
have taught many adult classes and would, in that process, include many of
Bart Ehrman?s offerings in the Great Courses series. Currently, my class has
six sessions of his course: After the New Testament: The Writings of the
Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had planned to present these this coming
fall. I received a call from our Director of Care Minister, who is the
scheduler for adult classes. She asked me to cancel this class because some
persons, (unknown to me), but who are not members of the class, had
complained about it. Earlier our senior pastor had mentioned to me that I
sho<br><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was
scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/attachments/20160917/1dc25c25/attachment-0001.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/<wbr>attachments/20160917/1dc25c25/<wbr>attachment-0001.htm</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message:
2<br>Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 22:36:14 -0500<br>From: William Salmon via OE
<<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>To:
"Bill Schlesinger" <<a href="mailto:w.schlesinger@pvida.net">w.schlesinger@pvida.net</a>>,
"Order Ecumenical<br>
Community" <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>,
"'zbarley'"<br> <<a href="mailto:zbarley@earthlink.net">zbarley@earthlink.net</a>><br>Subject:
[Oe List ...] Salmon: On prayer<br>Message-ID:
<<wbr>C9A446D512AA410FBF17039390B2F9<wbr>FD@hp><br>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Colleagues-in-Dialogue:<br>
Spong is a prime member of the vanguard for contexting the future. The
Order--et al--are those standing between the No Longer and the Not Yet.
Unfortunately, the language used by Spong, and those like him, represents
the worldview of the Renaissance Human; the give away is such phrases as, ".
. .the act of embracing transcendence. . . " Such words imply a metaphysics
that is the gift of Greek dualism and eventually Newtonian
physics.<br> Those born on the cusp of 1985 have no
appreciation of such language. This is the reason that today's youth, and
their parents, left the church, because their intuitions are based on
transparency rather than on transcendence.<br> Today's
worldview embraces an inner awareness.<br> The key praxis is to
ask, "How do you experience. . . ?," instead of, "What do you
know?"<br> For instance, the provocative question is,
"How do you experience God?" rather than the more traditional question,
"What do we know about God?"<br> The Head Trip answer is, "God
is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent? Observe how these answers
lead us into irrelevance.<br> The Gut Trip answer is: "God is
love?"<br> "When was the last time you were
loved?"<br> "It is when my wife forgave me for
being a fool."<br> "Everyone knows what a fool is
like, and what forgiveness is like."<br> Theologically,
this approach is experiential and existential. This exercise does not give
us a definition of God, instead we know we stood in the presence of God; in
God's shadow.<br> It's late, and I'm off to bed!<br>
Inner Peace!<br> Bill Salmon<br><br><br><br><br>-----
Original Message -----<br> From: Bill Schlesinger via OE<br> To:
'zbarley' ; 'Order Ecumenical Community'<br> Sent: Saturday, September
17, 2016 10:04 AM<br> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...][Dialogue] 9/16/16,
Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concluded)<br><br><br> Not following the disappointment ? sounded
like Spong was echoing the non-magical understanding of prayer. ?These are
little more than the delusions of yesterday that we are now called on to
abandon.? It?s pretty clear that there are a lot of folk who would
like a magically manipulated world and who ask for it. Friend of mine
says ?no gambler avoids superstition. How the cards are held in the hand
must influence the random sequence of events!? Luck, superstitious
prayer, magic ? or ?the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious
practice of sharing with another the gifts of living, loving and
being.? Sounds a lot like the prayer short course from RS-1 to
me.<br><br><br><br> Bill Schlesinger<br><br><br><br> From: OE
[mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>]
On Behalf Of zbarley via OE<br> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016
8:50 AM<br> To: James Wiegel; Order Ecumenical Community<br>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concluded)<br><br><br><br> Ken and I just talked about Spong's latest
and are disappointed in him on this topic. I have trouble believing there
are people who ask a Being in the sky to intervene. But then I have trouble
with people who believe Trump.<br><br><br><br> Thanks for the prayer
words - we had good poets amongst us.<br><br><br><br>
Zoe<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G
LTE smartphone<br><br><br><br> -------- Original message
--------<br> From: James Wiegel via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>
Date: 2016/09/17 7:56 AM (GMT-07:00)<br> To: Ellie Stock <<a href="mailto:elliestock@aol.com">elliestock@aol.com</a>>, Colleague
Dialogue <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:oe@wedgeblade.net">oe@wedgeblade.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)<br><br> Trying
to make sense of Spongs call for reformation and what is really there.
Read this section on Prayer, remembered the prayer song. See
below. Anyone recall the short courses on prayer from the
RS1?<br><br><br> PRAYER<br> Tune: Aravah (Hebrew)<br><br>
When I see my life<br> ever is torn<br><br> And loved
ones<br> violated<br><br> And my failures are<br> daily
reborn<br><br> Then sorrow with<br> heaven is
weighted<br><br> Yet I can gladly em-<br> brace every
hour<br><br> And praise God?s<br> inequity<br><br> I can
sing of my blessings<br> that shower<br><br> My joy<br>
inexpressible be.<br><br><br> Now here I stand<br> battered to
and fro<br><br> Now here I stand<br> battered to and
fro<br><br> The chaos within<br> yet surrounding<br><br> I
cry out my want and<br> the lack that I know<br><br> And power
from with-<br> out feel uplifting.<br><br><br> The weight of the
world<br> on my shoulders I bear<br><br> I echo the<br>
voices that cry<br><br> The path of Mankind<br> with my agony
bent<br><br> And my God I?ll fight on<br> ?til I
die<br><br> Jim Wiegel<br> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson,
Arizona 85353<br> Tel. 011-623-936-8671 or <a href="tel:011-623-363-3277" value="+6233633277">011-623-363-3277</a><br> <a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a><br> <a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.<wbr>com</a><br><br> "We are
no longer living in an era of change. We are living in a change of
era." Francis<br><br> Upcoming public course opportunities click
here<br> <a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/?<wbr>page_id=10</a><br>
For online registration go to <a href="http://www.top-training.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.top-training.net</a><br><br>
The AZ ToP? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting
again on Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003<br>
AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP? courses<br><br> > On Sep 16,
2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via Dialogue <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>>
wrote:<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br>
><br> > HOMEPAGE
MY PROFILE ESSAY ARCHIVE
MESSAGE BOARDS CALENDAR<br>
><br> > Charting a New Reformation<br> > Part XXXV ?
Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)<br> > Before prayer can be made real
our understanding of God, coupled with our understanding of how the world
works, must be newly defined. Before prayer can have meaning, it must be
built on an honest sharing of life. Cornelia, the woman about whom I wrote
last week, did that for me. Before prayer can be discussed in the age in
which we live, it must be drained of its presumed manipulative magic. It
must find expression in the reality of who we are, not in the details of
what we do. These were the insights that my third story gave to me as I
walked through what was probably the darkest period of my life, the years
1981-1989. The learning curve was steep; the depth of despair was real. I
invite you now to enter that time period with me and to walk through that
experience as I did. This narrative is true, personal and painful. I have
spoken verbally of it before. I have not written about it. Doing so even now
makes me feel quite vulnerable.<br> ><br> > Around
Christmas of 1981, my first wife, Joan Lydia Ketner Spong, was diagnosed
with advanced breast cancer. She had never been fond of doctors and so had
postponed seeing one until she felt her symptoms had become critical. She
had discovered a lump in her breast much earlier and had decided to tell no
one for a very long time. It grew very slowly causing her to assume, perhaps
to hope, that it must be benign. It remained her secret. That December as
the holidays came into focus, however, the tumor erupted externally and
became a draining sore. When that occurred, I became alarmed and got her as
quickly as I could to a doctor. After an examination and later a biopsy, we
heard the verdict. She had a stage four malignancy. Immediate surgery was
required and massive chemotherapy would have to follow the surgery. No
guarantees were offered even then. In fact we were told that about two years
of life might be all that we could reasonably expect. We sank into the shock
of that<br>
diagnosis.<br> ><br> > At that time I
was an active and fairly high-profile public figure as the bishop of Newark.
We had been engaged in great controversies over the full acceptance in both
church and society of gay, lesbian, transgender and bi-sexual persons. I was
clearly identified in this fight and my name was widely recognized from
press and television coverage. People in public life learn quickly that they
really do not, perhaps cannot, have a private life. Within minutes, it
seemed, the news of both my wife?s diagnosis and her prognosis spread until
it seemed to me as if the whole world knew. From that day on, I never
visited a congregation in my diocese for confirmation that prayers were not
offered publicly for my wife and for me. Prayer groups all over New Jersey
informed us that they were praying for us ? some were Episcopal, some were
Roman Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one thing they all appeared to
have in common was that they knew of the two-year maximum boundary that
p<br> resumably my wife and I were facing. I did not resent this
invasion of our privacy. I was rather appreciative of their efforts, as was
Joan. Their actions felt supportive and loving. In their own way, the people
were telling us that they really cared for us and, in whatever way they
could, they wanted to help. They were willing in this way to stand with us,
to share in our pain and in our struggle. One never rejects
love
that is so freely offered, even when the form in which it comes might not be
one?s particular style. So Joan and I were carried by this wave of love from
those who reached out to us in what was clearly our time of need.<br>
><br> > The months passed and then the years began to mount.
When we passed the two-year prediction date, and things were still going
positively, I noticed that these prayer groups began to take credit for my
wife?s longevity. In their letters to me, it almost sounded as if they
believed that they had engaged the powers of evil in some profound contest
that pitted them on God?s side, holding back God?s enemies. Their prayers,
they suggested, were pushing back the advance of this demonic sickness. They
were winning the battle and they felt good about their success. Once again,
my response was not to debate the theological implications of their
understanding of prayer, but simply to appreciate the level of caring that
they were offering. It was, at least in its intention, sustaining. I could
not help, however, in the darkness of each night to wonder about the
implications of their understanding of prayer<br> ><br> >
?Suppose,? I thought to myself during a particularly sleepless time, ?that a
member of the City of Newark?s sanitation department had a wife with
cancer.? At that time, Newark, New Jersey, was either at or very near the
top of the list of America?s poorest per capita cities. I tried to envision
just who it was who might occupy the bottom tier of Newark?s socio-economic
status system. My mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly, on the garbage
collector working for Newark?s sanitation department. So I focused on
him.<br> ><br> > In this long dark meditation, I wondered
how many prayer groups would have added her name to their lists. How much
public notice would her illness have achieved? If this couple went to
church, perhaps that community might have been aware of their struggle, but
would services have been interrupted with passionate petitions for healing?
Would the gates of heaven have been stormed by massive number of prayers?
Would God, I then wondered, let this man?s wife die more quickly than my
wife? My high public profile and social prominence alone caused more prayers
to be uttered for my wife than for his. Would those prayers be a factor, I
wondered, in either healing or longevity? Does God operate on the basis of
human status? If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I would
immediately become an atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a deity.
This capricious God would be demonic, it seemed to me. The cumulative power
of many people praying existed in the case of my wife<br> only because
I was a fairly well known public figure. Is status a factor in what is
thought of as the healing power of God? When John Paul II lingered on his
death bed for so long, the whole world joined in prayer for him. Was that a
factor in his long lingering death? When hurricanes barrel down on a
population center like New Orleans, the cries of millions are lifted
heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many prayers affect the
course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or alter the path of a
disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a tool to be used
by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is true then God
clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for the poor, the
forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes theologically violent,
absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it cannot be that. My
wife lived for six and a half years from her diagnosis in December of 1981
to her death in A<br> ugust of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that
extension of time, but I did not fully understand then the gift that I was
given. Life is like that. As St. Paul says, we see only ?through a glass
darkly.?<br> ><br> > So I put these stories with their
varied and distinctive insights together. Then I seek to draw conclusions
about what prayer means in the 21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a
petition from the weak to the all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot
do for ourselves. Prayer does not bend God?s will to a new conclusion.
Prayer does not bring a cure where there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer
does not create miracles to which we can testify publicly.<br>
><br> > These are little more than the delusions of yesterday
that we are now called on to abandon. They arose out of the childhood of our
humanity. Today a new question emerges, which we must face with honesty. Is
prayer only the human act of last resort? Does praying reflect anything more
than the fact that all else has failed? Why do we say so frequently to
people, ?You will be in my prayers,? when we never stop to pray? Is it not
our impotence in the face of life?s pain that draws us to pretend that we
actually possess the power to make a difference, creating nothing more than
a comfortable fantasy land in which we can hide?<br> ><br>
> Is my experience, which tells me that loving, caring and sharing
matter, actually real? Can prayer be defined as something other than this
pious activity? Does it have any claim on reality? Is prayer a holy activity
or is it a preparation for a time of engaging in a holy activity?
Increasingly, I am moving to the latter conclusion. It is life that is holy.
It is love that is life-giving. Having the courage to be all that I can be
is the place where God and life come together for me. If that is so, is not
living, loving and being the essence of prayer and the
meaning of
worship? When Paul enjoined us to ?pray without ceasing? did he mean to
engage the activity of praying unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are to
see all of life as a prayer calling the world to enter that place where
life, love and being reveal the meaning of God? Is Christianity not coming
to the place where my ?I? meets another?s ?Thou? and in that moment God
i<br> s present?<br> ><br> > I pray daily. In my own
way, I bring before the eyes of my mind those I love and thus into my
awareness of the holy in which my life seems to be lived. Do I expect
miracles to occur, lives to be changed or wholeness suddenly to replace
brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more whole, to be set free to
share my life more deeply with others, to be enabled to love beyond my
boundaries and to watch the barriers that divide me from those I once
avoided lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the presence of God, the
act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of sharing with
another the gifts of living, loving and being. Can that understanding of
prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any real difference in our world?
I believe it can, it does and it will.<br> ><br> > John
Shelby Spong<br> ><br> ><br> > Question &
Answer<br> > Clifford Hill of Wheaton, Illinois, writes:<br>
><br> ><br> > Question:<br> > I am a member of
a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over the years, I have
taught many adult classes and would, in that process, include many of Bart
Ehrman?s offerings in the Great Courses series. Currently, my class has six
sessions of his course: After the New Testament: The Writings of the
Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had planned to present these this coming
fall. I received a call from our Director of Care Minister, who is the
scheduler for adult classes. She asked me to cancel this class because some
persons, (unknown to me), but who are not members of the class, had
complained about it. Earlier our senior pastor had mentioned to me that I
sho<br><br><br><br>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------------<br><br><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> OE mailing
list<br> <a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br><br><br><br>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------------<br><br><br>
No virus found in this message.<br> Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus
Database: 4656/13036 - Release Date: 09/17/16<br>-------------- next part
--------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/attachments/20160917/15cc368e/attachment-0001.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/<wbr>attachments/20160917/15cc368e/<wbr>attachment-0001.htm</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message:
3<br>Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 06:40:16 +0100<br>From: Adam Thomson via OE
<<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>To:
"Sarah H. Buss" <<a href="mailto:shbuss@mac.com">shbuss@mac.com</a>>, "Order
Ecumenical Community"<br> <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>Subject:
Re: [Oe List ...] Responding to Spong on prayer<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:57DAE58D0050A1EB@rgout06.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk">57DAE58D0050A1EB@rgout06.bt.<wbr>lon5.cpcloud.co.uk</a>>
(added by<br> <a href="mailto:postmaster@btinternet.com">postmaster@btinternet.com</a>)<br>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br><br> From Adam
Thomson, Dover England<br><br>This discussion does illustrate some
differing<br>concepts of the Mystery that exist.<br><br>I recall with great
affection my time at close<br>quarters with Movement colleagues back in the
70s<br>and 80s, and I am sad now that I am so far away<br>when discussions
like this current one on prayer get going.<br><br>As Gayle (Wright) my wife
and I have journeyed -<br>in relative isolation - we have made contact
with<br>our local Anglican church in Dover whose view on<br>anything is
pre-RS1, so we find ourselves<br>participating and adjusting our public
stance to<br>ensure that individuals within the congregation<br>do not feel
threatened by anything we may say,<br>but are affirmed; any strategy that
might journey<br>the group would have to be more on the lines of
a<br>secular approach such as LENS was.<br><br>As it happens, I get great
satisfaction out of<br>reading Bishop Spong's weekly column, and I
don't<br>see any "destructive" intention on his part in anything that he
says.<br><br>As for me, my time in the Order (especially the<br>Academy)
combined with encountering the writings<br>of Spong and Richard Dawkins,
suggests to me that:<br><br>1) The human response to the Mystery of Life
has<br>been to rationalise the Mystery by calling it<br>"God", and creating
the mythology around it.<br><br>2) Thus "God" is entirely a fabrication of
the<br>human imagination, embraced - thank God - in the<br>scriptures to
which we humans are privileged still to have access.<br><br>3) The reality
is that there is nothing<br>"supernatural" in our existance - the very
term<br>denies it - but there is indeed the mythology<br>that has freighted
human consciousness, and will continue to do so.<br><br>4) The mystery of
the human spirit and<br>spirituality remains - thank God - a
mystery.<br>However we need to pay heed to the continuing<br>fact that we
humans have the capacity both to<br>create life-giving stories, and to
propagate<br>life-denying stories. And that is where we in the<br>Spirit
Movement will always have a job to do - to<br>ensure the right stories are
told.<br><br>5) In terms of prayer: I have found prayer - as<br>voiced in a
public setting - entirely helpful, as<br>part of sharing and developing a
public story.<br>And of course, silent prayer is helpful to those<br>who
have a sense of a personal God - which I don't.<br><br>6) What I have found,
in my latter years, is that<br>the ONLY way things get done is when we
decide to<br>work WITH OTHERS to get it done: the word<br>"corporate" as we
used it in the Order, still has a strong pull on me.<br><br>7) That is why -
as an example - Gayle and I are<br>utterly bereft and in despair at the
disaster<br>known as "Brexit" that has struck Europe like a<br>bad disease.
Nothing in my life has been as bad.<br>I am now REALLY looking for the hope
beyond hope.<br><br>Love to all,<br><br>Adam & Gayle Thomson<br><br>END
OF MESSAGE<br><br>At 11:11 AM 18-09-16, you wrote:<br>>Perhaps setting
ones intention has to do with<br>>prayer, assuming we surrender the
outcome to the<br>>Mystery. Sometimes the "magic" works
and<br>>sometimes it doesn't . However, it is my<br>>experience that
the outcome can exceed my<br>>expectations or at the very least
reveal<br>>relevant and creative ways to get there.<br>>Sometimes, if
I am open, the process and/or the<br>>outcome exceeds my expectations.
AWESOME when this happens--sheer Mystery.<br>>Sarah<br>><br>>Sent
from my iPhone:<br>><br>>On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:59 AM, Susan Fertig
via<br>>OE <<mailto:<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>><a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
wrote:<br>><br>>>This makes me so sad to read Spong???s
intended<br>>>destruction of what I believe to be a
real<br>>>force and a most precious aspect of our relationship with
God.<br>>>Why not miracles today as in Jesus???
time?<br>>>I???ve witnessed some myself. He sent
out<br>>>thousands to heal in His name. And they did,<br>>>with
some success and some failure. Why is one<br>>>person healed and one
not? How can we know? Why<br>>>do we need to know? The outcome in any
one case<br>>>does not change the call to us to engage in this
way.<br>>><br>>>And the supernatural qualities of the
stories<br>>>of Jesus healing people is not
mutually<br>>>exclusive with the symbolic importance of
these<br>>>events. Whether the pallet I lie upon<br>>>represents
my own physical ailment or<br>>>disability or whether it represents
the<br>>>problems in my life that I have not chosen
to<br>>>confront or overcome and that have crippled me<br>>>in a
symbolic sense, both elements of that<br>>>situation are healable and
can be miracles. if<br>>>we ask and God chooses to respond. A
big<br>>>IF. But suppose God does not choose to
respond<br>>>in the way we have prayed for? Does that
negate<br>>>the importance of the interaction with Him?
Not<br>>>at all. The prayer is a potential source
of<br>>>intimacy with God for the pray-er that has<br>>>little
to do with whether or not physical<br>>>healing occurs???Does not
Spong understand that<br>>>his wife???s illness brought great numbers
of<br>>>people into a new relationship with God as
they<br>>>prayed for her? If they then took new hope
in<br>>>concluding that their prayers were being<br>>>answered,
who is to say that wasn???t true?<br>>>Doesn???t he wonder if perhaps
his wife lived<br>>>longer than expected just to enhance a new
or<br>>>intensified relationship those praying for her<br>>>were
discovering with their God? How is Spong<br>>>so arrogant as to assume
that a sanitation<br>>>worker???s wife wouldn???t have people
praying<br>>>for her just as passionately as people prayed for his
wife?<br>>><br>>>Love in
Christ,<br>>><br>>>Susan<br>>><br>>>Susan
Fertig-Dykes<br>>>(personal email account)<br>>><br>>>And
the Lord shall guide thee continually, and<br>>>satisfy thy soul in
drought . Isaiah 58:11<br>>><br>>><br>>>Protect
against email address harvesting:<br>>>Use "BCC" when sending to
multiple addresses;<br>>>delete senders??? E-Mail addresses when
forwarding.<br>>><br>>>NOTE: I won???t be offended if you ask me
to remove you from my emails.<br>>><br>>><br>>>From:
OE<br>>>[<mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>>mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-<wbr>bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>]<br>>>On
Behalf Of James Wiegel via OE<br>>>Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016
9:56 AM<br>>>To: Ellie Stock<br>>><<mailto:<a href="mailto:elliestock@aol.com">elliestock@aol.com</a>><a href="mailto:elliestock@aol.com"><wbr>elliestock@aol.com</a>>;<br>>>
Colleague Dialogue<br>>><<mailto:<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>><a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>><br>>>Cc:
<mailto:<a href="mailto:oe@wedgeblade.net">oe@wedgeblade.net</a>><a href="mailto:oe@wedgeblade.net">oe@<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a><br>>>Subject:
Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16,<br>>>Spong: Charting a New
Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concluded)<br>>><br>>>Trying to make sense of Spongs call
for<br>>>reformation and what is really there.
Read<br>>>this section on Prayer, remembered the
prayer<br>>>song. See below. Anyone recall the short
courses on prayer from the
RS1?<br>>><br>>><br>>>PRAYER<br>>>Tune: Aravah
(Hebrew)<br>>><br>>>When I see my life<br>>>ever is
torn<br>>><br>>>And loved
ones<br>>>violated<br>>><br>>>And my failures
are<br>>>daily reborn<br>>><br>>>Then sorrow
with<br>>>heaven is weighted<br>>><br>>>Yet I can gladly
em-<br>>>brace every hour<br>>><br>>>And praise
God???s<br>>>inequity<br>>><br>>>I can sing of my
blessings<br>>>that shower<br>>><br>>>My
joy<br>>>inexpressible be.<br>>><br>>><br>>>Now here
I stand<br>>>battered to and fro<br>>><br>>>Now here I
stand<br>>>battered to and fro<br>>><br>>>The chaos
within<br>>>yet surrounding<br>>><br>>>I cry out my want
and<br>>>the lack that I know<br>>><br>>>And power from
with-<br>>>out feel uplifting.<br>>><br>>><br>>>The
weight of the world<br>>>on my shoulders I
bear<br>>><br>>>I echo the<br>>>voices that
cry<br>>><br>>>The path of Mankind<br>>>with my agony
bent<br>>><br>>>And my God I???ll fight on<br>>>???til I
die<br>>><br>>>Jim
Wiegel<br>>><x-apple-data-detectors://0><wbr>401 North Beverly
Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353<br>>>Tel.
<<a href="tel:011-623-936-8671">tel:011-623-936-8671</a>>011-623-<wbr>936-8671
or<br>>><<a href="tel:011-623-363-3277">tel:011-623-363-3277</a>>011-<wbr>623-363-3277<br>>><mailto:<a href="mailto:marilyn.oyler@gmail.com">marilyn.oyler@gmail.<wbr>com</a>><a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a><br>>><a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.<wbr>com</a><br>>><br>>><br>>>"We
are no longer living in an era of<br>>>change. We are living in
a change of era." Francis<br>>><br>>>Upcoming public
course opportunities click here<br>>><<a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/?<wbr>page_id=10</a>><a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/?<wbr>page_id=10</a><br>>>For
online registration go to<br>>><<a href="http://www.top-training.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.top-training.<wbr>net/</a>><a href="http://www.top-training.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.top-training.<wbr>net</a><br>>><br>>><br>>>The
AZ ToP?? Community of Practice meets the<br>>>1st
<x-apple-data-detectors://8><wbr>Friday, 1-4 pm,<br>>>starting
again <x-apple-data-detectors://9>on<br>>>Sept 5th at
ACYR,<br>>><<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/<wbr>maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.<wbr>456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!<wbr>4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:<wbr>0x93c9f71171108956?hl=</a>>648<br>>>N.
5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003<br>>>AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all
ToP?? courses<br>>><br>>>On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock
via<br>>>Dialogue<br>>><<mailto:<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>><a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>>
wrote:<br>>><br>>><br>>>[]<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=ef935d3f1d&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage1.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=ef935d3f1d&e=0471473479</a>><wbr>Homepage<br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=185c7ac18b&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage1.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=185c7ac18b&e=0471473479</a>>My<br>>>Profile<br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=151543cc51&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage2.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=151543cc51&e=0471473479</a>><wbr>Essay<br>>>Archive<br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=7e84bb76c5&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage.com/track/click?u=<wbr>b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=<wbr>7e84bb76c5&e=0471473479</a>><wbr>Message<br>>>Boards<br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=03ea9f51ec&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage1.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=03ea9f51ec&e=0471473479</a>><wbr>Calendar<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Charting
a New
Reformation<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Part
XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concludeed)<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Before prayer
can be made real our<br>>>understanding of God, coupled with
our<br>>>understanding of how the world works, must
be<br>>>newly defined. Before prayer can have meaning,<br>>>it
must be built on an honest sharing of life.<br>>>Cornelia, the woman
about whom I wrote last<br>>>week, did that for me. Before prayer can
be<br>>>discussed in the age in which we live, it must<br>>>be
drained of its presumed manipulative magic.<br>>>It must find
expression in the reality of who<br>>>we are, not in the details of
what we do. These<br>>>were the insights that my third story gave
to<br>>>me as I walked through what was probably
the<br>>>darkest period of my life, the years
1981-1989.<br>>>The learning curve was steep; the depth
of<br>>>despair was real. I invite you now to enter<br>>>that
time period with me and to walk through<br>>>that experience as I did.
This narrative is<br>>>true, personal and painful. I have
spoken<br>>>verbally of it before. I have not written
about<br>>>it. Doing so even now makes me feel quite
vulnerable.<br>>><br>>>Around Christmas of 1981, my first wife,
Joan<br>>>Lydia Ketner Spong, was diagnosed with
advanced<br>>>breast cancer. She had never been fond
of<br>>>doctors and so had postponed seeing one until<br>>>she
felt her symptoms had become critical. She<br>>>had discovered a lump
in her breast much<br>>>earlier and had decided to tell no one for
a<br>>>very long time. It grew very slowly causing her<br>>>to
assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be<br>>>benign. It remained her
secret. That December<br>>>as the holidays came into focus, however,
the<br>>>tumor erupted externally and became a
draining<br>>>sore. When that occurred, I became alarmed
and<br>>>got her as quickly as I could to a doctor.<br>>>After
an examination and later a biopsy, we<br>>>heard the verdict. She had
a stage four<br>>>malignancy. Immediate surgery was required
and<br>>>massive chemotherapy would have to follow
the<br>>>surgery. No guarantees were offered even then.<br>>>In
fact we were told that about two years of<br>>>life might be all that
we could reasonably<br>>>expect. We sank into the shock of that
diagnosis.<br>>><br>>>At that time I was an active and
fairly<br>>>high-profile public figure as the bishop
of<br>>>Newark. We had been engaged in great<br>>>controversies
over the full acceptance in both<br>>>church and society of gay,
lesbian, transgender<br>>>and bi-sexual persons. I was clearly
identified<br>>>in this fight and my name was widely
recognized<br>>>from press and television coverage. People
in<br>>>public life learn quickly that they really do<br>>>not,
perhaps cannot, have a private life.<br>>>Within minutes, it seemed,
the news of both my<br>>>wife???s diagnosis and her prognosis
spread<br>>>until it seemed to me as if the whole
world<br>>>knew. From that day on, I never visited
a<br>>>congregation in my diocese for confirmation<br>>>that
prayers were not offered publicly for my<br>>>wife and for me. Prayer
groups all over New<br>>>Jersey informed us that they were praying
for<br>>>us ? some were Episcopal, some were
RRoman<br>>>Catholic and some were ecumenical. The
one<br>>>thing they all appeared to have in common was<br>>>that
they knew of the two-year maximum boundary<br>>>that presumably my
wife and I were facing. I<br>>>did not resent this invasion of our
privacy. I<br>>>was rather appreciative of their efforts,
as<br>>>was Joan. Their actions felt supportive and<br>>>loving.
In their own way, the people were<br>>>telling us that they really
cared for us and,<br>>>in whatever way they could, they wanted
to<br>>>help. They were willing in this way to stand<br>>>with
us, to share in our pain and in our<br>>>struggle. One never rejects
love that is so<br>>>freely offered, even when the form in which
it<br>>>comes might not be one???s particular style.
So<br>>>Joan and I were carried by this wave of love<br>>>from
those who reached out to us in what was clearly our time of
need.<br>>><br>>>The months passed and then the years began
to<br>>>mount. When we passed the two-year prediction<br>>>date,
and things were still going positively, I<br>>>noticed that these
prayer groups began to take<br>>>credit for my wife???s longevity. In
their<br>>>letters to me, it almost sounded as if
they<br>>>believed that they had engaged the powers of<br>>>evil
in some profound contest that pitted them<br>>>on God???s side,
holding back God???s enemies.<br>>>Their prayers, they suggested, were
pushing<br>>>back the advance of this demonic sickness.
They<br>>>were winning the battle and they felt good<br>>>about
their success. Once again, my response<br>>>was not to debate the
theological implications<br>>>of their understanding of prayer, but
simply to<br>>>appreciate the level of caring that they
were<br>>>offering. It was, at least in its
intention,<br>>>sustaining. I could not help, however, in
the<br>>>darkness of each night to wonder about
the<br>>>implications of their understanding of
prayer<br>>><br>>>???Suppose,??? I thought to myself during
a<br>>>particularly sleepless time, ???that a member<br>>>of the
City of Newark???s sanitation department<br>>>had a wife with
cancer.??? At that time,<br>>>Newark, New Jersey, was either at or
very near<br>>>the top of the list of America???s poorest
per<br>>>capita cities. I tried to envision just who it<br>>>was
who might occupy the bottom tier of<br>>>Newark???s socio-economic
status system. My<br>>>mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly,
on<br>>>the garbage collector working for
Newark???s<br>>>sanitation department. So I focused on
him.<br>>><br>>>In this long dark meditation, I wondered
how<br>>>many prayer groups would have added her name
to<br>>>their lists. How much public notice would
her<br>>>illness have achieved? If this couple went
to<br>>>church, perhaps that community might have
been<br>>>aware of their struggle, but would services<br>>>have
been interrupted with passionate petitions<br>>>for healing? Would the
gates of heaven have<br>>>been stormed by massive number of
prayers?<br>>>Would God, I then wondered, let this
man???s<br>>>wife die more quickly than my wife? My
high<br>>>public profile and social prominence alone<br>>>caused
more prayers to be uttered for my wife<br>>>than for his. Would those
prayers be a factor,<br>>>I wondered, in either healing or
longevity?<br>>>Does God operate on the basis of human
status?<br>>>If I believed that prayer worked in this way,
I<br>>>would immediately become an atheist! I could<br>>>not
possibly believe in such a deity. This<br>>>capricious God would be
demonic, it seemed to<br>>>me. The cumulative power of many people
praying<br>>>existed in the case of my wife only because
I<br>>>was a fairly well known public figure. Is<br>>>status a
factor in what is thought of as the<br>>>healing power of God? When
John Paul II<br>>>lingered on his death bed for so long,
the<br>>>whole world joined in prayer for him. Was that<br>>>a
factor in his long lingering death? When<br>>>hurricanes barrel down
on a population center<br>>>like New Orleans, the cries of millions
are<br>>>lifted heavenward in prayer. Will the<br>>>cumulative
power of many prayers affect the<br>>>course of a life, change the
direction of a<br>>>hurricane or alter the path of a disease?
Is<br>>>that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a<br>>>tool
to be used by the mighty, the powerful and<br>>>the well-known. If
that is true then God<br>>>clearly cares more for the rich and famous
than<br>>>God does for the poor, the forgotten and
the<br>>>unknown. Such a conclusion becomes<br>>>theologically
violent, absurd and even<br>>>hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it
cannot<br>>>be that. My wife lived for six and a half
years<br>>>from her diagnosis in December of 1981 to
her<br>>>death in August of 1988. In retrospect, I<br>>>treasure
that extension of time, but I did not<br>>>fully understand then the
gift that I was<br>>>given. Life is like that. As St. Paul says,
we<br>>>see only ???through a glass
darkly.???<br>>><br>>>So I put these stories with their varied
and<br>>>distinctive insights together. Then I seek to<br>>>draw
conclusions about what prayer means in the<br>>>21st century. Prayer
is not and cannot be a<br>>>petition from the weak to the all-powerful
one<br>>>to do for us what we cannot do for
ourselves.<br>>>Prayer does not bend God???s will to a
new<br>>>conclusion. Prayer does not bring a cure
where<br>>>there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer
does<br>>>not create miracles to which we can testify
publicly.<br>>><br>>>These are little more than the delusions
of<br>>>yesterday that we are now called on to
abandon.<br>>>They arose out of the childhood of
our<br>>>humanity. Today a new question emerges, which<br>>>we
must face with honesty. Is prayer only the<br>>>human act of last
resort? Does praying reflect<br>>>anything more than the fact that all
else has<br>>>failed? Why do we say so frequently to
people,<br>>>???You will be in my prayers,??? when we
never<br>>>stop to pray? Is it not our impotence in
the<br>>>face of life???s pain that draws us to
pretend<br>>>that we actually possess the power to make
a<br>>>difference, creating nothing more than a<br>>>comfortable
fantasy land in which we can hide?<br>>><br>>>Is my experience,
which tells me that loving,<br>>>caring and sharing matter, actually
real? Can<br>>>prayer be defined as something other than
this<br>>>pious activity? Does it have any claim
on<br>>>reality? Is prayer a holy activity or is it
a<br>>>preparation for a time of engaging in a
holy<br>>>activity? Increasingly, I am moving to the<br>>>latter
conclusion. It is life that is holy. It<br>>>is love that is
life-giving. Having the courage<br>>>to be all that I can be is the
place where God<br>>>and life come together for me. If that is
so,<br>>>is not living, loving and being the essence
of<br>>>prayer and the meaning of worship? When
Paul<br>>>enjoined us to ???pray without ceasing??? did<br>>>he
mean to engage the activity of praying<br>>>unceasingly? Or did he
mean that we are to see<br>>>all of life as a prayer calling the world
to<br>>>enter that place where life, love and being<br>>>reveal
the meaning of God? Is Christianity not<br>>>coming to the place where
my ???I??? meets<br>>>another???s ???Thou??? and in that moment God is
present?<br>>><br>>>I pray daily. In my own way, I bring before
the<br>>>eyes of my mind those I love and thus into
my<br>>>awareness of the holy in which my life seems to<br>>>be
lived. Do I expect miracles to occur, lives<br>>>to be changed or
wholeness suddenly to replace<br>>>brokenness? No, but I do expect to
be made more<br>>>whole, to be set free to share my life
more<br>>>deeply with others, to be enabled to love<br>>>beyond
my boundaries and to watch the barriers<br>>>that divide me from those
I once avoided<br>>>lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of
the<br>>>presence of God, the act of
embracing<br>>>transcendence and the conscious practice
of<br>>>sharing with another the gifts of living,<br>>>loving
and being. Can that understanding of<br>>>prayer, so free of miracle
and magic, make any<br>>>real difference in our world? I believe it
can, it does and it will.<br>>><br>>>John Shelby
Spong<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Question &
Answer<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Clifford Hill of
Wheaton, Illinois,
writes:<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Question:<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>I
am a member of a United Methodist Church in<br>>>Wheaton, Illinois.
Over the years, I have<br>>>taught many adult classes and would, in
that<br>>>process, include many of Bart
Ehrman???s<br>>>offerings in the Great Courses
series.<br>>>Currently, my class has six sessions of
his<br>>>course: After the New Testament: The Writings<br>>>of
the Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had<br>>>planned to present
these this coming fall. I<br>>>received a call from our Director of
Care<br>>>Minister, who is the scheduler for adult<br>>>classes.
She asked me to cancel this class<br>>>because some persons, (unknown
to me), but who<br>>>are not members of the class, had
complained<br>>>about it. Earlier our senior pastor
had<br>>>mentioned to me that I should be<br>>>???sensitive???
to others??? feelings about<br>>>this class and presumably, about Bart
Ehrman,<br>>><br>>>My question: What is your professional
opinion<br>>>about the credibility and qualifications
of<br>>>Professor Bart Ehrman and what is your
opinion<br>>>about his scholarship as evidenced in his
books<br>>>and in his Great Courses
classes?<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Answer:<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Dear
Cliff,<br>>><br>>>I know Bart Ehrman and believe him to be
a<br>>>competent scholar of the first order. His<br>>>expertise
is in the period of early Christian<br>>>history more than it is in
scripture studies<br>>>per se. I have listened to all of his
classes<br>>>in the Great Courses series and
have<br>>>appreciated his insights, controversial as
some<br>>>of them well may be. Dr. Ehrman challenges
the<br>>>popular, but not substantiated, assumption
that<br>>>there ever was such a thing as
???Orthodox<br>>>Christianity. He demonstrates,
rather<br>>>powerfully, that there were originally
???many<br>>>Christianities??? long before what came to
be<br>>>called traditional orthodoxy emerged with power as ???The One
True Faith.???<br>>><br>>>I suspect that what you are now
hearing is not<br>>>an objection to Bart Ehrman???s
scholarship,<br>>>but rather the fact that in one of his
recent<br>>>books, he stated that he was no longer
a<br>>>believer. He now calls himself an atheist. He<br>>>has
had an interesting history, starting in one<br>>>of the most
conservative and fundamentalist<br>>>parts of the Christian Church. In
my opinion,<br>>>he is still processing his life experience.
He<br>>>has much to teach us all. No one has to agree<br>>>with
either his current faith position or with<br>>>any of his conclusions;
his scholarship is<br>>>still impressive. In the book in which he
said<br>>>that he was no longer a believer, I have
an<br>>>endorsement on the back cover. In that<br>>>endorsement
I said I had come to a very<br>>>different conclusion, but that I
still had a great respect for his work. I do.<br>>><br>>>John
Shelby
Spong<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Announcements<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=e95984a88b&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage.com/track/click?u=<wbr>b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=<wbr>e95984a88b&e=0471473479</a>><br>>>[]<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>Bishop
Spong speaks at The American Cathedral in Paris on October 16,
2016<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=2b3daada24&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage2.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=2b3daada24&e=0471473479</a>><wbr>Click<br>>>here
for more
information<br>>><br>>>____________________________<wbr>___________________<br>>>Dialogue
mailing list<br>>><mailto:<a href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>><a href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a><br>>><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/dialogue-<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a><br>>><br>>>____________________________<wbr>___________________<br>>>OE
mailing list<br>>><mailto:<a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>>><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br>>_____________________________<wbr>__________________<br>>OE
mailing list<br>><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br><br>--------------
next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL:
<<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/attachments/20160918/8514bce0/attachment-0001.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/<wbr>attachments/20160918/8514bce0/<wbr>attachment-0001.htm</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message:
4<br>Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 07:35:13 +0100<br>From: Paul Schrijnen via OE
<<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>To:
Adam Thomson <<a href="mailto:adam.thomson007@btinternet.com">adam.thomson007@btinternet.<wbr>com</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>Subject:
Re: [Oe List ...] Responding to Spong on prayer<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:2AA42D6E-7A01-4297-A2EC-941CB815670D@aol.com">2AA42D6E-7A01-4297-A2EC-<wbr>941CB815670D@aol.com</a>><br>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>Good Adam,<br><br>Like you, I suffer
from a deep Brexit blues. A great regressive tragedy.<br><br>God only knows
how we rise from this.<br><br>Indeed, with love to
all,<br><br>Paul<br><br>Paul Schrijnen<br>13 Bloemfontein Avenue<br>London
W12 7BJ<br><a href="mailto:paul.schrijnen@gmail.com">paul.schrijnen@gmail.com</a><br>+44
7973 206 766<br>skype: paulus.schrijnen<br><br><br><br><br><br>> On 18
Sep 2016, at 06:40, Adam Thomson via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
wrote:<br>><br>> From Adam Thomson, Dover England<br>><br>> This
discussion does illustrate some differing concepts of the Mystery that
exist.<br>><br>> I recall with great affection my time at close
quarters with Movement colleagues back in the 70s and 80s, and I am sad now
that I am so far away when discussions like this current one on prayer get
going.<br>><br>> As Gayle (Wright) my wife and I have journeyed - in
relative isolation - we have made contact with our local Anglican church in
Dover whose view on anything is pre-RS1, so we find ourselves participating
and adjusting our public stance to ensure that individuals within the
congregation do not feel threatened by anything we may say, but are
affirmed; any strategy that might journey the group would have to be more on
the lines of a secular approach such as LENS was.<br>><br>> As it
happens, I get great satisfaction out of reading Bishop Spong's weekly
column, and I don't see any "destructive" intention on his part in anything
that he says.<br>><br>> As for me, my time in the Order (especially
the Academy) combined with encountering the writings of Spong and Richard
Dawkins, suggests to me that:<br>><br>> 1) The human response to the
Mystery of Life has been to rationalise the Mystery by calling it "God", and
creating the mythology around it.<br>><br>> 2) Thus "God" is entirely
a fabrication of the human imagination, embraced - thank God - in the
scriptures to which we humans are privileged still to have
access.<br>><br>> 3) The reality is that there is nothing
"supernatural" in our existance - the very term denies it - but there is
indeed the mythology that has freighted human consciousness, and will
continue to do so.<br>><br>> 4) The mystery of the human spirit and
spirituality remains - thank God - a mystery. However we need to pay heed to
the continuing fact that we humans have the capacity both to create
life-giving stories, and to propagate life-denying stories. And that is
where we in the Spirit Movement will always have a job to do - to ensure the
right stories are told.<br>><br>> 5) In terms of prayer: I have found
prayer - as voiced in a public setting - entirely helpful, as part of
sharing and developing a public story. And of course, silent prayer is
helpful to those who have a sense of a personal God - which I
don't.<br>><br>> 6) What I have found, in my latter years, is that the
ONLY way things get done is when we decide to work WITH OTHERS to get it
done: the word "corporate" as we used it in the Order, still has a strong
pull on me.<br>><br>> 7) That is why - as an example - Gayle and I are
utterly bereft and in despair at the disaster known as "Brexit" that has
struck Europe like a bad disease. Nothing in my life has been as bad. I am
now REALLY looking for the hope beyond hope.<br>><br>> Love to
all,<br>><br>> Adam & Gayle Thomson<br>><br>> END OF
MESSAGE<br>><br>> At 11:11 AM 18-09-16, you wrote:<br>>> Perhaps
setting ones intention has to do with prayer, assuming we surrender the
outcome to the Mystery. Sometimes the "magic" works and sometimes it doesn't
. However, it is my experience that the outcome can exceed my expectations
or at the very least reveal relevant and creative ways to get there.
Sometimes, if I am open, the process and/or the outcome exceeds my
expectations. AWESOME when this happens--sheer Mystery.<br>>>
Sarah<br>>><br>>> Sent from my iPhone:<br>>><br>>>
On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:59 AM, Susan Fertig via OE <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>>
> wrote:<br>>><br>>>> This makes me so sad to read
Spong???s intended destruction of what I believe to be a real force and a
most precious aspect of our relationship with God.<br>>>> Why not
miracles today as in Jesus??? time? I???ve witnessed some myself. He sent
out thousands to heal in His name. And they did, with some success and some
failure. Why is one person healed and one not? How can we know? Why do we
need to know? The outcome in any one case does not change the call to us to
engage in this way.<br>>>><br>>>> And the supernatural
qualities of the stories of Jesus healing people is not mutually exclusive
with the symbolic importance of these events. Whether the pallet I lie upon
represents my own physical ailment or disability or whether it represents
the problems in my life that I have not chosen to confront or overcome and
that have crippled me in a symbolic sense, both elements of that situation
are healable and can be miracles. if we ask and God chooses to respond. A
big IF. But suppose God does not choose to respond in the way we have
prayed for? Does that negate the importance of the interaction with Him? Not
at all. The prayer is a potential source of intimacy with God for the
pray-er that has little to do with whether or not physical healing
occurs???Does not Spong understand that his wife???s illness brought great
numbers of people into a new relationship with God as they prayed for her?
If they then took new hope in concluding that their prayers were being
answered,<br> who is to say that wasn???t true? Doesn???t he wonder if
perhaps his wife lived longer than expected just to enhance a new or
intensified relationship those praying for her were discovering with their
God? How is Spong so arrogant as to assume that a sanitation worker???s wife
wouldn???t have people praying for her just as passionately as people prayed
for his wife?<br>>>><br>>>> Love in
Christ,<br>>>><br>>>>
Susan<br>>>><br>>>> Susan Fertig-Dykes<br>>>>
(personal email account)<br>>>><br>>>> And the Lord shall
guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought . Isaiah
58:11<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Protect against email
address harvesting:<br>>>> Use "BCC" when sending to multiple
addresses;<br>>>> delete senders??? E-Mail addresses when
forwarding.<br>>>><br>>>> NOTE: I won???t be offended if
you ask me to remove you from my
emails.<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> From: OE [?mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>>]
On Behalf Of James Wiegel via OE<br>>>> Sent: Saturday, September
17, 2016 9:56 AM<br>>>> To: Ellie Stock <<a href="mailto:elliestock@aol.com">elliestock@aol.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:elliestock@aol.com">elliestock@aol.com</a>>>; Colleague
Dialogue <?<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>>><br>>>>
Cc: <a href="mailto:oe@wedgeblade.net">oe@wedgeblade.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:oe@wedgeblade.net">oe@wedgeblade.net</a>><br>>>>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New
Reformation, Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concluded)<br>>>><br>>>> Trying to make sense of Spongs
call for reformation and what is really there. Read this section on
Prayer, remembered the prayer song. See below. Anyone recall the
short courses on prayer from the
RS1?<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> PRAYER<br>>>>
Tune: Aravah (Hebrew)<br>>>><br>>>> When I see my
life<br>>>> ever is torn<br>>>><br>>>> And loved
ones<br>>>> violated<br>>>><br>>>> And my
failures are<br>>>> daily reborn<br>>>><br>>>>
Then sorrow with<br>>>> heaven is
weighted<br>>>><br>>>> Yet I can gladly
em-<br>>>> brace every hour<br>>>><br>>>> And
praise God???s<br>>>> inequity<br>>>><br>>>> I
can sing of my blessings<br>>>> that
shower<br>>>><br>>>> My joy<br>>>> inexpressible
be.<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Now here I
stand<br>>>> battered to and fro<br>>>><br>>>>
Now here I stand<br>>>> battered to and
fro<br>>>><br>>>> The chaos within<br>>>> yet
surrounding<br>>>><br>>>> I cry out my want
and<br>>>> the lack that I know<br>>>><br>>>> And
power from with-<br>>>> out feel
uplifting.<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> The weight of the
world<br>>>> on my shoulders I bear<br>>>><br>>>>
I echo the<br>>>> voices that cry<br>>>><br>>>>
The path of Mankind<br>>>> with my agony
bent<br>>>><br>>>> And my God I???ll fight
on<br>>>> ???til I die<br>>>><br>>>> Jim
Wiegel<br>>>> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353
<x-apple-data-detectors://0><br>>>> Tel. 011-623-936-8671
<<a href="tel:011-623-936-8671">tel:011-623-936-8671</a>> or 011-623-363-3277
<<a href="tel:011-623-363-3277">tel:011-623-363-3277</a>><br>>>> <a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:marilyn.oyler@gmail.com">marilyn.oyler@gmail.<wbr>com</a>><br>>>>
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.<wbr>com</a> <<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
"We are no longer living in an era of change. We are living in a
change of era." Francis<br>>>><br>>>> Upcoming
public course opportunities click here<br>>>> <a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/?<wbr>page_id=10</a>
<<a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://<wbr>partnersinparticipation.com/?<wbr>page_id=10</a>><br>>>>
For online registration go to <a href="http://www.top-training.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.top-training.net</a> <<a href="http://www.top-training.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.top-training.net/</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
The AZ ToP?? Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm
<x-apple-data-detectors://8>, starting again on Sept 5th
<x-apple-data-detectors://9> at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ
85003 <<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:0x93c9f71171108956?hl=" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/maps/<wbr>place/648+N+5th+Ave/@33.<wbr>456329,-112.080545,16z/data=!<wbr>4m2!3m1!1s0x872b123a5312512d:<wbr>0x93c9f71171108956?hl=</a>><br>>>>
AICP Planners: 14.5 CM for all ToP?? courses<br>>>><br>>>>
On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via Dialogue <?<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>>>
wrote:<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Homepage <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=ef935d3f1d&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage1.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=ef935d3f1d&e=0471473479</a>>
My Profile <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=185c7ac18b&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage1.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=185c7ac18b&e=0471473479</a>>
Essay Archive <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=151543cc51&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage2.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=151543cc51&e=0471473479</a>>
Message Boards <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=7e84bb76c5&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage.com/track/click?u=<wbr>b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=<wbr>7e84bb76c5&e=0471473479</a>>
Calendar <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=03ea9f51ec&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage1.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=03ea9f51ec&e=0471473479</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Charting a New
Reformation<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Part XXXV ? Thesis #10, Prayer
(concludeed)<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Before prayer can be made real our understanding of God, coupled with our
understanding of how the world works, must be newly defined. Before prayer
can have meaning, it must be built on an honest sharing of life. Cornelia,
the woman about whom I wrote last week, did that for me. Before prayer can
be discussed in the age in which we live, it must be drained of its presumed
manipulative magic. It must find expression in the reality of who we are,
not in the details of what we do. These were the insights that my third
story gave to me as I walked through what was probably the darkest period of
my life, the years 1981-1989. The learning curve was steep; the depth of
despair was real. I invite you now to enter that time period with me and to
walk through that experience as I did. This narrative is true, personal and
painful. I have spoken verbally of it before. I have not written about it.
Doing so even now makes me feel quite
vulnerable.<br>>>><br>>>> Around Christmas of 1981, my
first wife, Joan Lydia Ketner Spong, was diagnosed with advanced breast
cancer. She had never been fond of doctors and so had postponed seeing one
until she felt her symptoms had become critical. She had discovered a lump
in her breast much earlier and had decided to tell no one for a very long
time. It grew very slowly causing her to assume, perhaps to hope, that it
must be benign. It remained her secret. That December as the holidays came
into focus, however, the tumor erupted externally and became a draining
sore. When that occurred, I became alarmed and got her as quickly as I could
to a doctor. After an examination and later a biopsy, we heard the verdict.
She had a stage four malignancy. Immediate surgery was required and massive
chemotherapy would have to follow the surgery. No guarantees were offered
even then. In fact we were told that about two years of life might be all
that we could reasonably expect. We sank into the shock of that<br>
diagnosis.<br>>>><br>>>> At that time I was an active and
fairly high-profile public figure as the bishop of Newark. We had been
engaged in great controversies over the full acceptance in both church and
society of gay, lesbian, transgender and bi-sexual persons. I was clearly
identified in this fight and my name was widely recognized from press and
television coverage. People in public life learn quickly that they really do
not, perhaps cannot, have a private life. Within minutes, it seemed, the
news of both my wife???s diagnosis and her prognosis spread until it seemed
to me as if the whole world knew. From that day on, I never visited a
congregation in my diocese for confirmation that prayers were not offered
publicly for my wife and for me. Prayer groups all over New Jersey informed
us that they were praying for us ? some were Episcopal, some were RRoman
Catholic and some were ecumenical. The one thing they all appeared to have
in common was that they knew of the two-year maximum boundary tha<br> t
presumably my wife and I were facing. I did not resent this invasion of our
privacy. I was rather appreciative of their efforts, as was Joan. Their
actions felt supportive and loving. In their own way, the people were
telling us that they really cared for us and, in whatever way they could,
they wanted to help. They were willing in this way to stand with us, to
share in our pain and in our struggle. One never rejects love that is so
freely offered, even when the form in which it comes might not be one???s
particular style. So Joan and I were carried by this wave of love from those
who reached out to us in what was clearly our time of
need.<br>>>><br>>>> The months passed and then the years
began to mount. When we passed the two-year prediction date, and things were
still going positively, I noticed that these prayer groups began to take
credit for my wife???s longevity. In their letters to me, it almost sounded
as if they believed that they had engaged the powers of evil in some
profound contest that pitted them on God???s side, holding back God???s
enemies. Their prayers, they suggested, were pushing back the advance of
this demonic sickness. They were winning the battle and they felt good about
their success. Once again, my response was not to debate the theological
implications of their understanding of prayer, but simply to appreciate the
level of caring that they were offering. It was, at least in its intention,
sustaining. I could not help, however, in the darkness of each night to
wonder about the implications of their understanding of
prayer<br>>>><br>>>> ???Suppose,??? I thought to myself
during a particularly sleepless time, ???that a member of the City of
Newark???s sanitation department had a wife with cancer.??? At that time,
Newark, New Jersey, was either at or very near the top of the list of
America???s poorest per capita cities. I tried to envision just who it was
who might occupy the bottom tier of Newark???s socio-economic status system.
My mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly, on the garbage collector
working for Newark???s sanitation department. So I focused on
him.<br>>>><br>>>> In this long dark meditation, I
wondered how many prayer groups would have added her name to their lists.
How much public notice would her illness have achieved? If this couple went
to church, perhaps that community might have been aware of their struggle,
but would services have been interrupted with passionate petitions for
healing? Would the gates of heaven have been stormed by massive number of
prayers? Would God, I then wondered, let this man???s wife die more quickly
than my wife? My high public profile and social prominence alone caused more
prayers to be uttered for my wife than for his. Would those prayers be a
factor, I wondered, in either healing or longevity? Does God operate on the
basis of human status? If I believed that prayer worked in this way, I would
immediately become an atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a deity.
This capricious God would be demonic, it seemed to me. The cumulative power
of many people praying existed in the case of my wif<br> e only because
I was a fairly well known public figure. Is status a factor in what is
thought of as the healing power of God? When John Paul II lingered on his
death bed for so long, the whole world joined in prayer for him. Was that a
factor in his long lingering death? When hurricanes barrel down on a
population center like New Orleans, the cries of millions are lifted
heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many prayers affect the
course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or alter the path of a
disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a tool to be used
by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is true then God
clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for the poor, the
forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes theologically violent,
absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it cannot be that. My
wife lived for six and a half years from her diagnosis in December of 1981
to her death in<br> August of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that
extension of time, but I did not fully understand then the gift that I was
given. Life is like that. As St. Paul says, we see only ???through a glass
darkly.???<br>>>><br>>>> So I put these stories with their
varied and distinctive insights together. Then I seek to draw conclusions
about what prayer means in the 21st century. Prayer is not and cannot be a
petition from the weak to the all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot
do for ourselves. Prayer does not bend God???s will to a new conclusion.
Prayer does not bring a cure where there is no possibility of a cure. Prayer
does not create miracles to which we can testify
publicly.<br>>>><br>>>> These are little more than the
delusions of yesterday that we are now called on to abandon. They arose out
of the childhood of our humanity. Today a new question emerges, which we
must face with honesty. Is prayer only the human act of last resort? Does
praying reflect anything more than the fact that all else has failed? Why do
we say so frequently to people, ???You will be in my prayers,??? when we
never stop to pray? Is it not our impotence in the face of life???s pain
that draws us to pretend that we actually possess the power to make a
difference, creating nothing more than a comfortable fantasy land in which
we can hide?<br>>>><br>>>> Is my experience, which tells
me that loving, caring and sharing matter, actually real? Can prayer be
defined as something other than this pious activity? Does it have any claim
on reality? Is prayer a holy activity or is it a preparation for a time of
engaging in a holy activity? Increasingly, I am moving to the latter
conclusion. It is life that is holy. It is love that is life-giving. Having
the courage to be all that I can be is the place where God and life come
together for me. If that is so, is not living, loving and being the essence
of prayer and the meaning of worship? When Paul enjoined us to ???pray
without ceasing??? did he mean to engage the activity of praying
unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are to see all of life as a prayer
calling the world to enter that place where life, love and being reveal the
meaning of God? Is Christianity not coming to the place where my ???I???
meets another???s ???Thou??? and in that moment God is
present?<br>>>><br>>>> I pray daily. In my own way, I
bring before the eyes of my mind those I love and thus into my awareness of
the holy in which my life seems to be lived. Do I expect miracles to occur,
lives to be changed or wholeness suddenly to replace brokenness? No, but I
do expect to be made more whole, to be set free to share my life more deeply
with others, to be enabled to love beyond my boundaries and to watch the
barriers that divide me from those I once avoided lowered. Prayer to me is
the practice of the presence of God, the act of embracing transcendence and
the conscious practice of sharing with another the gifts of living, loving
and being. Can that understanding of prayer, so free of miracle and magic,
make any real difference in our world? I believe it can, it does and it
will.<br>>>><br>>>> John Shelby
Spong<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Question &
Answer<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Clifford Hill of Wheaton, Illinois,
writes:<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Question:<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> I
am a member of a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over the
years, I have taught many adult classes and would, in that process, include
many of Bart Ehrman???s offerings in the Great Courses series. Currently, my
class has six sessions of his course: After the New Testament: The Writings
of the Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had planned to present these this
coming fall. I received a call from our Director of Care Minister, who is
the scheduler for adult classes. She asked me to cancel this class because
some persons, (unknown to me), but who are not members of the class, had
complained about it. Earlier our senior pastor had mentioned to me that I
should be ???sensitive??? to others??? feelings about this class and
presumably, about Bart Ehrman,<br>>>><br>>>> My question:
What is your professional opinion about the credibility and qualifications
of Professor Bart Ehrman and what is your opinion about his scholarship as
evidenced in his books and in his Great Courses
classes?<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Answer:<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Dear
Cliff,<br>>>><br>>>> I know Bart Ehrman and believe him to
be a competent scholar of the first order. His expertise is in the period of
early Christian history more than it is in scripture studies per se. I have
listened to all of his classes in the Great Courses series and have
appreciated his insights, controversial as some of them well may be. Dr.
Ehrman challenges the popular, but not substantiated, assumption that there
ever was such a thing as ???Orthodox Christianity. He demonstrates, rather
powerfully, that there were originally ???many Christianities??? long before
what came to be called traditional orthodoxy emerged with power as ???The
One True Faith.???<br>>>><br>>>> I suspect that what you
are now hearing is not an objection to Bart Ehrman???s scholarship, but
rather the fact that in one of his recent books, he stated that he was no
longer a believer. He now calls himself an atheist. He has had an
interesting history, starting in one of the most conservative and
fundamentalist parts of the Christian Church. In my opinion, he is still
processing his life experience. He has much to teach us all. No one has to
agree with either his current faith position or with any of his conclusions;
his scholarship is still impressive. In the book in which he said that he
was no longer a believer, I have an endorsement on the back cover. In that
endorsement I said I had come to a very different conclusion, but that I
still had a great respect for his work. I
do.<br>>>><br>>>> John Shelby
Spong<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Announcements<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
? <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=e95984a88b&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage.com/track/click?u=<wbr>b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=<wbr>e95984a88b&e=0471473479</a>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Bishop Spong speaks at The American Cathedral in Paris on October 16,
2016<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>>
Click here for more information <<a href="http://johnshelbyspong.us2.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=2b3daada24&e=0471473479" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://johnshelbyspong.us2.<wbr>list-manage2.com/track/click?<wbr>u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&<wbr>id=2b3daada24&e=0471473479</a>><br>>>><br>>>>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>>>>
Dialogue mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Dialogue@lists.<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>><br>>>>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/dialogue-<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>
<<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/dialogue-<wbr>wedgeblade.net</a>><br>>>><br>>>>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>>>> OE
mailing list<br>>>> <a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>><br>>>>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a>
<<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>>_____________________________<wbr>__________________<br>>>
OE mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>>>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a>
<<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>><br>>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>> OE mailing
list<br>> <a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.<wbr>net</a>><br>>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a>
<<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><wbr>><br>--------------
next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL:
<<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/attachments/20160918/4902e6f3/attachment.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>pipermail/oe-wedgeblade.net/<wbr>attachments/20160918/4902e6f3/<wbr>attachment.htm</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject:
Digest
Footer<br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>OE
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End
of OE Digest, Vol 54, Issue
15<br>******************************<wbr>****<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">David Flowers<br><br>"Whatever the problem, community is the
answer. There is no power greater than a community discovering what it
cares about." Margaret Wheatley<br></div></div></div>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>OE mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p><a></a>
<p align="left" color="#000000" avgcert??="">No virus found in this
message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus
Database: 4656/13042 - Release Date: 09/18/16</p></blockquote>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>OE mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>