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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Colleagues-in-Dialogue:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Spong is a prime member of the
vanguard for contexting the future. The Order--<EM>et al--</EM>are those
standing between the No Longer and the Not Yet. Unfortunately, the language used
by Spong, and those like him, represents the worldview of the Renaissance Human;
the give away is such phrases as, ". . .<FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman">the act of embracing <STRONG>transcendence. . .
</STRONG>" Such words imply a metaphysics that is the gift of Greek dualism and
eventually Newtonian physics. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Those born on the cusp of 1985
have no appreciation of such language. This is the reason that today's youth,
and their parents, left the church, because their intuitions are based on
<STRONG>transparency</STRONG> rather than on <STRONG>transcendence.
</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Today's worldview
embraces an inner awareness. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> The key praxis is to ask, "How
do you experience. . . ?," instead of, "What do you know?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> For instance, the
provocative question is, "How do you <STRONG>experience God?"
</STRONG>rather than the more traditional question, "What do we know about
God?" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT size=2 face=Arial> <U>The Head Trip
answer</U> is, "God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent? Observe
how these answers lead us into
irrelevance.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> <U>The Gut Trip answer</U> is:
"God is love?" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> "When was the
last time you were loved?" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> "It is when
my wife forgave me for being a fool." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> "Everyone
knows what a fool is like, and what forgiveness is like."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Theologically, this
approach is experiential and existential. T</FONT><FONT size=2
face=Arial>his exercise does not give us a definition of God, instead
we know we stood in the presence of God; in God's shadow. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> It's late, and I'm off
to bed!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Inner Peace!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial> Bill Salmon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=oe@lists.wedgeblade.net href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">Bill
Schlesinger via OE</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=zbarley@earthlink.net
href="mailto:zbarley@earthlink.net">'zbarley'</A> ; <A
title=oe@lists.wedgeblade.net href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">'Order
Ecumenical Community'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 17, 2016 10:04
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Oe List ...][Dialogue]
9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part XXXV – Thesis #10, Prayer
(concluded)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal>Not following the disappointment – sounded like Spong was
echoing the non-magical understanding of prayer.<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
“</SPAN>These are little more than the delusions of yesterday that we are now
called on to abandon.” It’s pretty clear that there are a lot of folk
who would like a magically manipulated world and who ask for it. Friend
of mine says ‘no gambler avoids superstition. How the cards are held in the
hand must influence the random sequence of events!’ Luck, superstitious
prayer, magic – or “the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious
practice of sharing with another the gifts of living, loving and being.”
Sounds a lot like the prayer short course from RS-1 to
me.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Bill Schlesinger<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> OE
[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <B>On Behalf Of </B>zbarley via
OE<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 17, 2016 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> James
Wiegel; Order Ecumenical Community<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Oe List ...]
[Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part XXXV – Thesis #10,
Prayer (concluded)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Ken and I just talked about Spong's latest and are
disappointed in him on this topic. I have trouble believing there are people
who ask a Being in the sky to intervene. But then I have trouble with people
who believe Trump.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Thanks for the prayer words - we had good poets amongst
us.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Zoe<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV id=composer_signature>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #575757; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent from my
Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>-------- Original message --------<BR>From: James
Wiegel via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net> <BR>Date: 2016/09/17 7:56 AM
(GMT-07:00) <BR>To: Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com>, Colleague Dialogue
<dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> <BR>Cc: oe@wedgeblade.net <BR>Subject:
Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] 9/16/16, Spong: Charting a New Reformation, Part
XXXV – Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded) <BR><BR>Trying to make sense of Spongs
call for reformation and what is really there. Read this section on
Prayer, remembered the prayer song. See below. Anyone recall the
short courses on prayer from the RS1?<BR><BR><BR
style="PAGE-BREAK-BEFORE: always" clear=all>PRAYER<BR>Tune: Aravah
(Hebrew)<BR><BR>When I see my life<BR>ever is torn<BR><BR>And loved
ones<BR>violated<BR><BR>And my failures are <BR>daily reborn<BR><BR>Then
sorrow with<BR>heaven is weighted<BR><BR>Yet I can gladly em-<BR>brace every
hour<BR><BR>And praise God’s<BR>inequity<BR><BR>I can sing of my blessings
<BR>that shower<BR><BR>My joy<BR>inexpressible be.<BR><BR><BR>Now here I
stand<BR>battered to and fro<BR><BR>Now here I stand<BR>battered to and
fro<BR><BR>The chaos within<BR>yet surrounding<BR><BR>I cry out my want
and<BR>the lack that I know<BR><BR>And power from with-<BR>out feel
uplifting.<BR><BR><BR>The weight of the world<BR>on my shoulders I
bear<BR><BR>I echo the<BR>voices that cry<BR><BR>The path of Mankind<BR>with
my agony bent<BR><BR>And my God I’ll fight on<BR>‘til I die<BR><BR>Jim
Wiegel<BR>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353<BR>Tel.
011-623-936-8671 or 011-623-363-3277<BR><A
href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com">www.partnersinparticipation.com</A><BR><BR>"We
are no longer living in an era of change. We are living in a change of
era." Francis<BR><BR>Upcoming public course opportunities click
here<BR><A
href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10">http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=10</A><BR>For
online registration go to <A
href="http://www.top-training.net">http://www.top-training.net</A><BR><BR>The
AZ ToP® Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday, 1-4 pm, starting again on
Sept 5th at ACYR, 648 N. 5th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85003<BR>AICP Planners: 14.5
CM for all ToP® courses<BR><BR>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 10:12, Ellie Stock via
Dialogue <<A
href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</A>>
wrote:<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>
HOMEPAGE MY
PROFILE ESSAY
ARCHIVE MESSAGE
BOARDS CALENDAR<BR>> <BR>> Charting
a New Reformation<BR>> Part XXXV – Thesis #10, Prayer (concluded)<BR>>
Before prayer can be made real our understanding of God, coupled with our
understanding of how the world works, must be newly defined. Before prayer can
have meaning, it must be built on an honest sharing of life. Cornelia, the
woman about whom I wrote last week, did that for me. Before prayer can be
discussed in the age in which we live, it must be drained of its presumed
manipulative magic. It must find expression in the reality of who we are, not
in the details of what we do. These were the insights that my third story gave
to me as I walked through what was probably the darkest period of my life, the
years 1981-1989. The learning curve was steep; the depth of despair was real.
I invite you now to enter that time period with me and to walk through that
experience as I did. This narrative is true, personal and painful. I have
spoken verbally of it before. I have not written about it. Doing so even now
makes me feel quite vulnerable.<BR>> <BR>> Around Christmas of 1981, my
first wife, Joan Lydia Ketner Spong, was diagnosed with advanced breast
cancer. She had never been fond of doctors and so had postponed seeing one
until she felt her symptoms had become critical. She had discovered a lump in
her breast much earlier and had decided to tell no one for a very long time.
It grew very slowly causing her to assume, perhaps to hope, that it must be
benign. It remained her secret. That December as the holidays came into focus,
however, the tumor erupted externally and became a draining sore. When that
occurred, I became alarmed and got her as quickly as I could to a doctor.
After an examination and later a biopsy, we heard the verdict. She had a stage
four malignancy. Immediate surgery was required and massive chemotherapy would
have to follow the surgery. No guarantees were offered even then. In fact we
were told that about two years of life might be all that we could reasonably
expect. We sank into the shock of
that
diagnosis.<BR>> <BR>> At that time I was an active and fairly
high-profile public figure as the bishop of Newark. We had been engaged in
great controversies over the full acceptance in both church and society of
gay, lesbian, transgender and bi-sexual persons. I was clearly identified in
this fight and my name was widely recognized from press and television
coverage. People in public life learn quickly that they really do not, perhaps
cannot, have a private life. Within minutes, it seemed, the news of both my
wife’s diagnosis and her prognosis spread until it seemed to me as if the
whole world knew. From that day on, I never visited a congregation in my
diocese for confirmation that prayers were not offered publicly for my wife
and for me. Prayer groups all over New Jersey informed us that they were
praying for us – some were Episcopal, some were Roman Catholic and some were
ecumenical. The one thing they all appeared to have in common was that they
knew of the two-year maximum boundary that presumably my wife and I were
facing. I did not resent this invasion of our privacy. I was rather
appreciative of their efforts, as was Joan. Their actions felt supportive and
loving. In their own way, the people were telling us that they really cared
for us and, in whatever way they could, they wanted to help. They were willing
in this way to stand with us, to share in our pain and in our struggle. One
never
rejects
love that is so freely offered, even when the form in which it comes might not
be one’s particular style. So Joan and I were carried by this wave of love
from those who reached out to us in what was clearly our time of need.<BR>>
<BR>> The months passed and then the years began to mount. When we passed
the two-year prediction date, and things were still going positively, I
noticed that these prayer groups began to take credit for my wife’s longevity.
In their letters to me, it almost sounded as if they believed that they had
engaged the powers of evil in some profound contest that pitted them on God’s
side, holding back God’s enemies. Their prayers, they suggested, were pushing
back the advance of this demonic sickness. They were winning the battle and
they felt good about their success. Once again, my response was not to debate
the theological implications of their understanding of prayer, but simply to
appreciate the level of caring that they were offering. It was, at least in
its intention, sustaining. I could not help, however, in the darkness of each
night to wonder about the implications of their understanding of
prayer<BR>> <BR>> “Suppose,” I thought to myself during a particularly
sleepless time, “that a member of the City of Newark’s sanitation department
had a wife with cancer.” At that time, Newark, New Jersey, was either at or
very near the top of the list of America’s poorest per capita cities. I tried
to envision just who it was who might occupy the bottom tier of Newark’s
socio-economic status system. My mind settled, whether rightly or wrongly, on
the garbage collector working for Newark’s sanitation department. So I focused
on him.<BR>> <BR>> In this long dark meditation, I wondered how many
prayer groups would have added her name to their lists. How much public notice
would her illness have achieved? If this couple went to church, perhaps that
community might have been aware of their struggle, but would services have
been interrupted with passionate petitions for healing? Would the gates of
heaven have been stormed by massive number of prayers? Would God, I then
wondered, let this man’s wife die more quickly than my wife? My high public
profile and social prominence alone caused more prayers to be uttered for my
wife than for his. Would those prayers be a factor, I wondered, in either
healing or longevity? Does God operate on the basis of human status? If I
believed that prayer worked in this way, I would immediately become an
atheist! I could not possibly believe in such a deity. This capricious God
would be demonic, it seemed to me. The cumulative power of many people praying
existed in the case of my wife only because I was a fairly well known public
figure. Is status a factor in what is thought of as the healing power of God?
When John Paul II lingered on his death bed for so long, the whole world
joined in prayer for him. Was that a factor in his long lingering death? When
hurricanes barrel down on a population center like New Orleans, the cries of
millions are lifted heavenward in prayer. Will the cumulative power of many
prayers affect the course of a life, change the direction of a hurricane or
alter the path of a disease? Is that what prayer does? If so, then prayer is a
tool to be used by the mighty, the powerful and the well-known. If that is
true then God clearly cares more for the rich and famous than God does for the
poor, the forgotten and the unknown. Such a conclusion becomes theologically
violent, absurd and even hate-filled. Whatever prayer means, it cannot be
that. My wife lived for six and a half years from her diagnosis in December of
1981 to her death in August of 1988. In retrospect, I treasure that extension
of time, but I did not fully understand then the gift that I was given. Life
is like that. As St. Paul says, we see only “through a glass darkly.”<BR>>
<BR>> So I put these stories with their varied and distinctive insights
together. Then I seek to draw conclusions about what prayer means in the 21st
century. Prayer is not and cannot be a petition from the weak to the
all-powerful one to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Prayer does not
bend God’s will to a new conclusion. Prayer does not bring a cure where there
is no possibility of a cure. Prayer does not create miracles to which we can
testify publicly.<BR>> <BR>> These are little more than the delusions of
yesterday that we are now called on to abandon. They arose out of the
childhood of our humanity. Today a new question emerges, which we must face
with honesty. Is prayer only the human act of last resort? Does praying
reflect anything more than the fact that all else has failed? Why do we say so
frequently to people, “You will be in my prayers,” when we never stop to pray?
Is it not our impotence in the face of life’s pain that draws us to pretend
that we actually possess the power to make a difference, creating nothing more
than a comfortable fantasy land in which we can hide?<BR>> <BR>> Is my
experience, which tells me that loving, caring and sharing matter, actually
real? Can prayer be defined as something other than this pious activity? Does
it have any claim on reality? Is prayer a holy activity or is it a preparation
for a time of engaging in a holy activity? Increasingly, I am moving to the
latter conclusion. It is life that is holy. It is love that is life-giving.
Having the courage to be all that I can be is the place where God and life
come together for me. If that is so, is not living, loving and being the
essence of prayer and
the
meaning of worship? When Paul enjoined us to “pray without ceasing” did he
mean to engage the activity of praying unceasingly? Or did he mean that we are
to see all of life as a prayer calling the world to enter that place where
life, love and being reveal the meaning of God? Is Christianity not coming to
the place where my “I” meets another’s “Thou” and in that moment God is
present?<BR>> <BR>> I pray daily. In my own way, I bring before the eyes
of my mind those I love and thus into my awareness of the holy in which my
life seems to be lived. Do I expect miracles to occur, lives to be changed or
wholeness suddenly to replace brokenness? No, but I do expect to be made more
whole, to be set free to share my life more deeply with others, to be enabled
to love beyond my boundaries and to watch the barriers that divide me from
those I once avoided lowered. Prayer to me is the practice of the presence of
God, the act of embracing transcendence and the conscious practice of sharing
with another the gifts of living, loving and being. Can that understanding of
prayer, so free of miracle and magic, make any real difference in our world? I
believe it can, it does and it will.<BR>> <BR>> John Shelby
Spong<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Question & Answer<BR>> Clifford Hill of
Wheaton, Illinois, writes:<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Question:<BR>> I
am a member of a United Methodist Church in Wheaton, Illinois. Over the years,
I have taught many adult classes and would, in that process, include many of
Bart Ehrman’s offerings in the Great Courses series. Currently, my class has
six sessions of his course: After the New Testament: The Writings of the
Apostolic Fathers, remaining and I had planned to present these this coming
fall. I received a call from our Director of Care Minister, who is the
scheduler for adult classes. She asked me to cancel this class because some
persons, (unknown to me), but who are not members of the class, had complained
about it. Earlier our senior pastor had mentioned to me that I
sho<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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