<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Anyone who has read The United Methodist Discipline understands that there is NOT going to be a schism, because every church has a trust clause on their real property giving the property to the denomination should they withdraw. That's a Constitutional clause, meaning it cannot be legislated away by a chagrined majority. Follow the money. Dissenting churches are NOT going to walk away from property (though I'll admit, we <span>might be better off </span>walking away from many of these old decrepit church buildings.) It's NOT going to happen! United Methodists will walk the fence on this issue until every state in the Union, or the Federal government, have effected the kind of sea change of opinion which wil make us change if we want to survive at
all. Remember <span style="font-style: italic;">The Sacred Canopy</span>, by sociologist Peter Berger. Churches make official changes to 'rubber stamp' the culture. The United Methodist Church is not the wedgeblade. That's why we all left the UMC way back when, but then went back to build a pension. <br></span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Saturday, June 14, 2014 5:03 PM, Ellie Stock <elliestock@aol.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv0601719527"><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
<div><font style="background-color:transparent;" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Mark and Mary,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thought you might be interested in this latest string of emails from the OE list serve. Read from the bottom up.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ellie</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="color:black;font-family:arial, helvetica;font-size:10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: jlepps@pc.jaring.my via OE <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net><br>
To: George Holcombe <grholcombe@gmail.com><br>
Cc: ICA/OE List Serves <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net><br>
Sent: Sat, Jun 14, 2014 4:54 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv0601719527AOLMsgPart_2_1b056427-053d-4a3c-8596-32c88be00069">
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Thanks for your thoughtful and historical response, Marshall. Your
comment, "I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a
HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should be
struggling to address" is the only point I was attempting to make.
Certainly I agree that same sex marriages should be honored in United
Methodism. It would be a shame for the church to split over this.
<br>
<br>
It has forced me to distinguish between the Church as institution and the
Church as movement. The former exists to enable the latter, but often it
lags behind. It even tends to function to perpetuate itself rather than
its cause. When that happens, it's due for a reform. It may even be that
the institutional church is wrestling with the major issue of
accommodating diversity that affects societies around the world. If it's
at that level, then maybe this is not a non-issue. Thanks for bringing up
this level of the conversation.<br>
<br>
The coffee smells like Illy latte!<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 03:02 PM 6/14/2014, George Holcombe wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv0601719527cite" type="cite">Dear Marshall, I don�t believe
John is "talking out of school.� I�m sure he can speak for
himself, but LBGT for our society is a non-issue, it�s over. Gay
marriage will be the law of the land. Every day the LBGT community
is gaining ground. For the younger generation it�s a
non-issue. The UMC is just running into a stone wall. It
would be much better if they let loose of the prejudice and got on with
the business at hand. Climate Change, poverty, corptocracy, just to
name a few need action. I am glad to see our Board of Pensions
removing investments from companies that support Israel, but there�s lots
more stuff we need to be about.<br>
<br>
We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who�ve signed the
pledge. The �Conservatives� (although I�m not sure that�s the
correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time is
marching on. For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we
support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false
interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to
hatred and violence.<br>
<br>
It�s happening. Reality is staring us in the face.<br>
<br>
George Holcombe<br>
14900 Yellowleaf Tr.<br>
Austin TX 78728<br>
Mobile 512/252-2756<br>
<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:grholcombe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:grholcombe@gmail.com">grholcombe@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
"Whatever the problem, community is the answer. There is no
power greater than a community discovering what it cares
about." Margaret Wheatley<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="yiv0601719527cite" type="cite">George Holcombe is one of the
Texas 'rebels'<br>
Marshall Jones<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/">10
Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex
Couples</a><br>
<div align="center">
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/">
<img alt="image" src="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/texas10-united-methodist-reporter.png" height="126" width="168">
</a><br>
</div>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/">10
Retired Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ...</a><br>
Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy from
officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk of losing
their ordination, t...<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/">View on
unitedmethod...</a><br>
Preview by Yahoo<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<font size="2">On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>
> wrote:<br>
</font><br>
<br>
Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, confrontation,
and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of Methodist conflict in
the following articles:<br>
<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/">
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage</a><br>
<div align="center">
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/">
<img alt="image" src="http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/dbde5e9ea0cd09494d5f137d56712b491a231800/c=0-891-2364-2666&r=x117&c=155x114/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2014/06/07/1402189020000-Methodist-Schism-Hill-1.jpg" height="168" width="168">
</a><br>
</div>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/">
Methodists fear split over same-sex marriage</a><br>
Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders
appear at an impasse.<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/">
View on www.usatoda...</a><br>
Preview by Yahoo<br>
<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split">
http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split</a><br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-consult-divisions-umc/">
http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-consult-divisions-umc/</a>
<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-lambrecht/">
http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-lambrecht/</a>
<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-calling-present-state-umc-untenable/%A0">
http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-calling-present-state-umc-untenable/
</a><br>
<br>
In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles cited
above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict over the
Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.<br>
<br>
If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill
McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert (as well
as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual union' a
"non-issue" for United Methodists.<br>
<br>
I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE distraction
from the REAL missional issues that the church should be struggling to
address.<br>
<br>
But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called
"non-issue" that threatens denominational schism (similar to
the schism over slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME
theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I accidentally
typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party radical right
wing.<br>
<br>
The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism,
Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist
clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about
instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline to
crack down on dissenters.<br>
<br>
So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a
"non-issue".<br>
<br>
Our profound cultural and theological biases around 'heteronormativity'
are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases around the racial inferiority
of people of color and female submission to male dominance (not to
mention the economic imperialism of the "1%").<br>
<br>
I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South until
the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in reunited
Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the lily-white
Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction was dissolved in
1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's.<br>
<br>
I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural legacy
enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative southern Methodism
is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' that their white male
Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.<br>
<br>
Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in western
North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he spent the
night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in the house Jacob
Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near Lake Junaluska.<br>
<dl>
<dd>Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid the
rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the mountains-
height after height and five miles over! After crossing many streams and
after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, about 9 o'clock at night
we gratefully came to Vater Shucks. <br>
<br>
</dd></dl>If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten
receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 his
house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch family, who
together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to illustrate that slavery
was considered economically 'necessary' and normalized by this part of
white Methodism as God's Will for Africans. Even Asbury failed to object,
though he denounced slavery and pleaded for abolition with George
Washington.<br>
<br>
In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is almost
totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as are the
descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The county is about 96%
white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.<br>
<br>
The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, normalized,
and unconsciously internalized that residents and visitors alike don't
even think about it. When they visit nearby Cherokee, NC, they focus more
on the lure of the casino than on the hidden-in-plain-sight reality of
'ethnic cleansing' that forced the vast majority of the Cherokee Nation
to endure a death march to Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been
reduced to summer theatre for tourists.<br>
<br>
Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce the
standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas called the
'vice against nature', which includes any and every sexual act except for
heterosexual intercourse in the famous missionary position (reserved
exclusively for those legally and heterosexually married, of course!).
Aquinas seems unconcerned with the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm
that way. Perhaps he was concerned only that women did their procreative
duty, whether they enjoyed it or not.<br>
<br>
Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes everybody
else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual cleansing' in the
church.<br>
<br>
The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist system
leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts severe
punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of majority
rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.<br>
<br>
If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, that's
because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably taking it for
granted).<br>
<br>
White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you owned
slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them sexually. You could
have sexual intercourse and father 'illegitimate' children with people of
color who were coerced or bullied, or who used your sexual interest to
acquire personal benefits. Often family members could not protect them.
You could invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women
sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her
sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in your
own behavior. <br>
<br>
Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the mindset
of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia they can't get
away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their last refuge is their
obsession with the evil of non-procreative sexual coupling symbolized in
'ceremonies of homosexual union.'<br>
<br>
And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and
smell the coffee, John!<br>
<br>
Marshall Jones<br>
<br>
<font size="2">From: JOHN L. EPPS
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my" target="_blank" href="mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my">jlepps@pc.jaring.my</a>><br>
To: W. J.
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:synergi@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:synergi@yahoo.com">synergi@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas<br>
</font><br>
Thanks Marshall.<br>
<br>
When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and the late
Will<br>
Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the
forward-looking<br>
theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's
still<br>
pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes
so<br>
much energy.<br>
<br>
Quoting "W. J."
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:synergi@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:synergi@yahoo.com">synergi@yahoo.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
> more Methodist news from Texas:<br>
><br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-mcelvaney/">
http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-mcelvaney/</a>
<br>
><br>
> Marshall<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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