<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">This is great Janice. Ellie wanted to know what my difference's with Dowd were, this is a key one. I believe there is a psychic-spiritual dimension in everything. Michael and Connie are of the emergentist understanding of this type. We begin with dead or inert matter and at there is increasing complexity at certain stages there are phase shifts. So, e.g.., consciousness is an epiphenomenon of complexity.<div>
<br></div><div>Here's an explanation, satisfactory to me, of why this is not the case:</div><div><p style="margin-left:0.5in">It seems that if we accept the modern scientific view of nature, we
must accept the human phenomenon as supernatural, either emerging out of the
natural realm but categorially quite different or else the product of special
creation by some supernatural power. In science, we recognize the emergence of
certain properties. For instance, water has properties not possessed by the
elements that constitute it. But the elements and their organization explain
water and its properties. However, there is no accounting for categorial
structures. We cannot explain subject matter with normative and inherent
meaning structures in terms of subject matter with only factual structures. If
a categorially enriched subject matter should appear in a context with only
existential and factual structures, its appearance would be a total mystery. In
fact, there would be two mysteries: the new categorial structures and their
appearance at the time and place in which they came into being. This has led
some to think in terms of special creation. But that generates the mystery of a
transcendent creative power with its categorial structure. That amounts to
explaining a mystery by embedding it in a larger mystery created for the
purpose. The intellectual quest drives us toward the reduction of mystery, not
the multiplication or enlargement of it. </p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"> <span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">The most plausible course
seems to be to rethink nature in such a way that we can account for the
appearance of the categorially rich biological and human realms as developments
in or fulfillment of preexisting nature. In other words, the fact that
biological and human phenomena appear on this planet in a “natural” environment
tells us something about the “natural” environment, for it must be such that it
brings forth the biological and the full array of human phenomena. . . . Hence,
we seem compelled to reintroduce humanistic categories into the
descriptive/explanatory language of science in its account of nature. If so, we
have a new humanistic view of nature and less mystery. Of course the categorial
structures of factuality, normativity, semantic intentionality, and causality
(whether naturalistic in the modern sense or teleological) remain givens
without explanation, for there is no logical room for an explanation of such
basic features of the world.</span></p></div><div><br></div><div>Here's a discussion of "emergentism" as distinguished from "emergence." Connie and Mike clearly stated to me that they are emergentists:</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">All varieties of emergentism strive to be compatible with </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism" title="Physicalism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">physicalism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">, the theory that the universe is composed exclusively of physical entities, and in particular with the evidence relating changes in the brain with changes in mental functioning. As a theory of mind (which it is not always), emergentism differs from</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism" title="Idealism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">idealism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">,</span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliminative_materialism" title="Eliminative materialism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">eliminative materialism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">,</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_theory_of_mind" title="Identity theory of mind" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">identity theories</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">,</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_monism" title="Neutral monism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">neutral monism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">,</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism" title="Panpsychism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">panpsychism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">, and</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dualism" title="Substance dualism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">substance dualism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">, whilst being closely associated with</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_dualism" title="Property dualism" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">property dualism</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">. It is generally not obvious whether an emergent theory of mind embraces</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_causation" title="Mental causation" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">mental causation</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">or must be considered</span><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenal" title="Epiphenomenal" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:19.190340042114258px;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">epiphenomenal</a><span style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif">.</span></div>
<div><p style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif;margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em">Some varieties of emergentism are not specifically concerned with the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-body_problem" title="Mind-body problem" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">mind-body problem</a>, and instead suggest a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy" title="Hierarchy" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">hierarchical</a> or layered view of the whole of nature, with the layers arranged in terms of increasing <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity" title="Complexity" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">complexity</a> with each requiring its own <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_science" title="Special science" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">special science</a>. Typically <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics" title="Physics" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">physics</a> is basic, with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry" title="Chemistry" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">chemistry</a> built on top of it, then <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology" title="Biology" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">biology</a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology" title="Psychology" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">psychology</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_sciences" title="Social sciences" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">social sciences</a>. Reductionists respond that the arrangement of the sciences is a matter of convenience, and that chemistry is derivable from physics (and so forth) <i>in principle</i>, an argument which gained force after the establishment of a quantum-mechanical basis for chemistry.<sup style="line-height:1em"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism#cite_note-1" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;white-space:nowrap" target="_blank">[1]</a></sup></p>
</div><div><p style="line-height:19.190340042114258px;font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:sans-serif;margin:0.4em 0px 0.5em">Other varieties see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind" title="Mind" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">mind</a> or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness" title="Consciousness" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">consciousness</a> as specifically and anomalously requiring emergentist explanation, and therefore constitute a family of positions in the<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind" title="Philosophy of mind" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">philosophy of mind</a>. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Hofstadter" title="Douglas Hofstadter" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">Douglas Hofstadter</a> summarises this view as <i>"the soul is more than the hum of its parts"</i>. A number of philosophers have offered the argument that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia" title="Qualia" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">qualia</a> constitute the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness" title="Hard problem of consciousness" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none" target="_blank">hard problem of consciousness</a>, and resist reductive explanation in a way that all other phenomena do not. In contrast, reductionists generally see the task of accounting for the possibly atypical properties of mind and of living things as a matter of showing that, contrary to appearances, such properties are indeed fully accountable in terms of the properties of the basic constituents of nature and therefore in no way genuinely atypical.</p>
</div></blockquote><div><div><br></div><div>I am a panpsychist, or I prefer a "panexperientialist."</div><div><br></div><div>Here are some of the other differences I have with Connie and Mike:</div>
<div><br></div><div>I don't believe you can divide the world between the empirically verifiable--by the five sense and logic--and the subjective. I accept Henry James radical empiricism which recognizes other ways of knowing including somatic (or bodily), intuitive and conative (will, impulse, desire, and striving).</div>
<div><br></div><div>I don't accept God as simply reality, or as we often have said "the way life is." I believe that God is the subject of God's own experience and acts.</div><div><br></div>
<div>I don't believe there can be a marriage of religion and science--science here meaning empirical science, that which is measurable, that which covers primary but not secondary qualifies.</div><div><br>
</div><div>I agree with Connie and Mike that there is a religious dimension of the scientific quest and that there is awe and mystery in scientific discovery.</div><div><br></div><div>What evolution means deserves its own email, which I will send later.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The phone call you note sounds wonderful Janice. I won't listen in Saturday but I will listen to the recording.</div><div><br></div><div>Herman</div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Janice Ulangca <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:aulangca@stny.rr.com" target="_blank">aulangca@stny.rr.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial">Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">So much bubbling right now. And our
"movement" needs to be part of it if we are to find the relevant
niches/roles for our unique experiences going forward. I've been very
interested in the list serv discussion of Charles Taylor's "The Secular
Society" - along with Michael Dowd's "Thank God for
Evolution".</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Some familiar names, along with some perhaps not so
for all of us, are coming up on a phone call this Saturday. Ken Wilbur's
ideas have been discussed by many of us - we read Riane Eisler's </font><font face="Arial">book "The Chalice and the Blade" - and I remember
hearing Barbara Marx Hubbard at 4750 the summer we heard people like Jean
Houston. Laszlo's book "The Chaos Point" we studied here
in Binghamton the year it came out. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">For those interested in the deeps of current
reality, including the role of consciousness, this phone call might be worth
checking out.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Janice Ulangca</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">-------------------</font></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font><br>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN:center" align="center"><strong>Saturday, July 20,
2013<br>12pm US Pacific / 3pm US Eastern<br><a style="COLOR:#336699" href="http://track.namastelight.com/c/443/9af276896b8fea8a0c7547791cfeca4dea308f6efac0a3f5b6237681fe29e284" target="_blank">Sign
up to listen live or receive the recording</a></strong></div><br>The evidence is
mounting from every direction: the materialist paradigm of science is breaking
down. Data that traditional scientists tried to ignore or dismiss has become
more robust every day.</div></div>
<div>
<p>What will replace the materialist paradigm? And how will that new paradigm
change how we think about... everything?</p>
<p>In this groundbreaking online event, some of the foremost thinkers of our day
will look at the implications of startling evidence that materialistic science
cannot explain, such as non-locality – that consciousness is connected at a
distance, instantly – and what they are calling the Akashic Field – a kind of
record-keeping function for the cosmos.</p>
<p>They will look at how the cumulative body of evidence forces a major, even
historic shift in how we see the nature of reality. Consciousness comes to the
foreground, not as an evolutionary afterthought but a prime mover and causative
factor.</p>
<p>How might this reshape the paradigm at the very foundations of science? And
how might it lead to the evolution of our culture and our consciousness?</p>
<p>Join us for scintillating insights, powerful dialogue, and a spirit of
adventure into the unknown.</p>
<p>You’ll hear powerful insights from pre-eminent panelists, including
scientists, philosophers, and futurists who are in public dialogue for the first
time:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Ervin Laszlo</strong> – Author of more than 80 books and one of
the most prodigious, systemic thinkers of our day </li>
<li><strong>Ken Wilber </strong>– Renowned integral philosopher who has
bridged worlds from spiritual practice to complexity theory to create a
comprehensive map of our Kosmos that includes our interiors </li>
<li><strong>Barbara Marx Hubbard </strong>– Celebrated as a visionary and
futurist for her ability to see future trends and possibilities </li>
<li><strong>Riane Eisler</strong> – Bestselling author, social scientist,
pioneer of the “partnership paradigm” </li>
<li><strong>Duane Elgin </strong>– Futurist, social visionary, author of five
books, former senior social scientist with Stanford Research Institute
</li></ul>
<p>This teleseminar event is completely free. So invite your friends and allies
and skeptics as well to join you for what is sure to be 60 minutes of brilliant
and provocative insights that give you a powerful glimpse of what the science of
the next millennium just may look like.</p>
<p>Even if you can’t make the call live, do sign up and you’ll receive access to
a recording.</p></div></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>__________________________________________________<div>Herman F. Greene</div><div>2516 Winningham Road</div>
<div>
Chapel Hill, NC 27516</div><div>919-942-4358 (ph & fax)</div>
<div><a href="mailto:hfgreenenc@gmail.com" target="_blank">hfgreenenc@gmail.com</a></div>
</font></span></font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>__________________________________________________<div>Herman F. Greene</div><div>2516 Winningham Road</div><div>Chapel Hill, NC 27516</div>
<div>919-942-4358 (ph & fax)</div>
<div><a href="mailto:hfgreenenc@gmail.com" target="_blank">hfgreenenc@gmail.com</a></div>
</font></span></div>
</div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>__________________________________________________<div>Herman F. Greene</div><div>2516 Winningham Road</div><div>Chapel Hill, NC 27516</div><div>919-942-4358 (ph & fax)</div>
<div><a href="mailto:hfgreenenc@gmail.com" target="_blank">hfgreenenc@gmail.com</a></div>
</div>