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<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: transparent;">Hi Herman,</font></div>
<div>I'd be interested to learn how yours and Dowd's perspective differ.</div>
<div>Ellie</div>
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<div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Herman Greene <hfgreenenc@gmail.com><br>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe@lists.wedgeblade.net><br>
Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 6:45 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] A review of Charles Taylor's "The Secular Society"<br>
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<div dir="ltr">David,
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<div>I would live your faith any day.</div>
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<div>I don't mean to inject a negative energy into commenting on Michael Dowd. He stands for a position, that deserves a hearing. He certainly adheres to his creed himself. He is a personal friend though he knows we look at things differently. He and Connie stayed with us for three days in May.</div>
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<div>So pretending we don't know who this comes from me, let me offer some writings from the blog post I referenced that may show a conflation of religion and science. And then I'll following it with things he says that hedges the matter and arguably are inconsistent with his basic stance;</div>
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<div>First the conflation:</div>
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<strong style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">A Manifesto for the New Theism</strong></div>
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A new breed of theist is emerging in nearly every denomination and religion across the globe, and many of us are <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarytimes.org/?id=4062053276054322992" target="_blank">grateful to the New Atheists</a> for calling us out of the closet. Just as today's crop of bestselling unbelievers are echoing what was said a hundred years ago, New Theists are re-articulating <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://bootstrapmonkey.com/2012/03/21/the-god-shaped-hole/" target="_blank">themes that ignited liberal sensibilities of the 19th and 20th centuries</a>.</div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">New Theists are <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">not</em> believers; we're evidentialists. We value scientific, historic and cross-cultural evidence over ancient texts, religious dogma or ecclesiastical authority. We also value how an evidential worldview enriches and deepens our communion with <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2010" target="_blank">God</a>-Reality-Life-Universe-Mystery-Wholeness.</div>
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<span style="font-size: 15px;">New Theists view religion and religious language through an empirical, evidential, evolutionary lens, rather than through a theological or philosophical one. Indeed, an ability to distinguish subjective and objective reality -- </span><a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); font-size: 15px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/practical-truth-vs-factual-truth/" target="_blank">practical truth</a><span style="font-size: 15px;"> (that which reliably produces personal wholeness and social coherence) from </span><a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); font-size: 15px; text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/practical-truth-vs-factual-truth/" target="_blank">factual truth</a><span style="font-size: 15px;"> (that which is measurably real) -- is one of the defining characteristics of New Theists.</span><br>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;"><strong style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">Reality is our God, evidence is our scripture, integrity is our religion, and contributing toward a healthy future is our mission.</strong></div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">By "<a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2010" target="_blank">reality is our God</a>" we mean that honoring and working with what is <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">real</em>, as evidentially and collectively discerned, and then creatively imagining what <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">could be</em>, is our ultimate concern and commitment.</div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">By "<a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-michael-dowd/the-evidential-reformation-humanity-comes-of-age_b_1421966.html" target="_blank">evidence is our Scripture</a>" we mean that scientific, historic and cross-cultural evidence provide a better understanding and a more authoritative map of <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">how things are</em> and <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">which things matter</em> (or <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">what is real</em> and <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">what is important</em>) than do ancient mythic writings or handed-down wisdom.</div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">By "<a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/big-integrity-resources-growing-in-right-relationship-to-reality/" target="_blank">integrity is our religion</a>" we mean that living in right relationship to reality and helping others and our species do the same is our great responsibility and joy.</div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">By "<a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/big-integrity-resources-growing-in-right-relationship-to-reality/" target="_blank">contributing toward a healthy future is our mission</a>" we mean that working with people of all backgrounds and beliefs in service of a vibrant future for planet Earth and all its gloriously diverse species is our divine calling and privilege.</div>
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</blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Georgia, Century, Times, serif"><span style="line-height: 21px; font-size: 15.19px;">Now where he hedges:</span></font>
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<span style="font-size: 15px;">New Theists are not supernaturalists; we're naturalists. We are inspired and motivated far</span><span style="font-size: 15px;"> </span>more by <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">this</em> world and <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">this</em> life than by promises of a future <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">other</em>world or <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">after</em>life. This does not, however, mean that we diss uplifting or transcendent experiences, or disvalue mystery. We don't. But neither do we see the mystical as divorced from the natural.</div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">New Theists differ from traditional theists in the same way that secular Jews differ from fundamentalist Jews. Most of us do value traditional religious language and rituals, and we certainly value community. We simply no longer interpret literally any of the otherworldly or supernatural-sounding language in our scriptures, creeds and doctrines. Indeed, we interpret all mythic "<a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/day-night-language-public-private-revelation/" target="_blank">night language</a>" as one would interpret a dream: metaphorically, symbolically.</div>
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<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">
New Theists practice what might be called a "<a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://evolutionarychristianity.com/blog/big-integrity-resources-growing-in-right-relationship-to-reality/" target="_blank">practical spirituality</a>." Spirituality for us means the mindset, heart-space and tools that assist one in <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/2012" target="_blank">growing in integrity</a> (i.e., in right relationship to reality) and supporting others and our species in doing the same. It also means an interpretive stance that can be counted on to deliver hope in times of confusion, solace in times of sorrow and support for handling life's inevitable challenges.</div>
<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">New Theists don't <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">believe </em>in God. We <em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">know</em> that throughout human history the word "God" has always and everywhere been a meaning-filled interpretation, <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2010" target="_blank">a mythic and inspiring personification</a> of forces and realities incomprehensible in pre-scientific times.</div>
<div style="list-style: none; margin: 0px 0px 14px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 21px; font-family: Georgia,Century,Times,serif; font-size: 15px;">. . . .</div>
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New Theists are <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism" target="_blank">religious naturalists</a>. Crucially, we value religion and religious heritage not only as a personal preference but also for its historic role in <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.metanexus.net/blog/evolutionary-significance-religion-multi-level-selection" target="_blank">fostering cooperation</a> at scales far larger than our instincts alone could have achieved (<em style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px currentColor;">also <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://thegreatstory.org/macneill.pdf" target="_blank">here</a> and <a style="list-style: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; outline: 0px; border: 0px currentColor; color: rgb(119, 28, 133); text-decoration: none;" href="http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/2075" target="_blank">here</a></em>).</div>
</blockquote><font color="#000000" face="Georgia, Century, Times, serif"><span style="line-height: 21px; font-size: 15.19px;">Maybe tomorrow I'll comment on his view of the centrality of evolution . . . as understood from an <i>emergentist</i> perspective.</span></font>
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<div><font color="#000000" face="Georgia, Century, Times, serif"><span style="line-height: 21px; font-size: 15.19px;">Herman</span></font></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:19 PM, David Dunn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dmdunn1@gmail.com">dmdunn1@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>On Jul 9, 2013, at 3:49 PM, Herman Greene <<a href="mailto:hfgreenenc@gmail.com">hfgreenenc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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Now this is an incomplete response and there is much more to be said, including some positive things about Michael's approach. By the way, in some senses I am a religious naturalist, but along the lines of process theology. See </div>
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<font><a style="color: rgb(204, 102, 0);" href="http://www.amazon.com/Reenchantment-without-Supernaturalism-Philosophy-Religion/dp/0801486572/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1373406412&sr=8-10&keywords=David+Ray+Griffin" target="_blank"><span title="Reenchantment without Supernaturalism: A Process Philosophy of Religion (Cornell Studies in the Philosophy of Religion)" style="font-weight: bold;">Reenchantment without Supernaturalism: A Process Philosophy of Religion (Cornell Studies in the Philosophy of...</span></a> <span>by <a style="color: rgb(153, 102, 51); text-decoration: none;" href="http://www.amazon.com/David-Ray-Griffin/e/B000APTCK4/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_10?qid=1373406412&sr=8-10" target="_blank">David Ray Griffin</a> (Nov 16, 2000). In the process approach there's plenty of transcendence as well as immanence, and religious knowledge is not only what can be known through the five senses and logic. There are other ways of knowing.</span></font></h3>
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<div>I think of myself as an avid scientist. What I believe is secondary and derivative of what I experience, with gratitude to the RS-I and Frank, Amy, Lyn, et al. I find myself thinking these days, "I don't believe in God, I have a God Hypothesis."</div>
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<div>I observe in more ways than I can name a mystery, depth, and greatness in the world (and dozens of et ceteras that I'll lump under the category gracious and holy mystery) that come at me in the form of relationships and events, inside me and outside me. It's all sustaining and energizing, etc., etc.</div>
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<div>My God hypothesis (for which read: narrative of what to expect) gives me eyes to see. My hypothesis is a narrative about trinitarian dynamics (limits, possibilities, freedom) and it has been uniformly and reliably predictive for over 40 years now. It's saved my life, one might say.</div>
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<div>Rather than "do you believe in God?" I prefer to ask, "What are our images of God? Are they predictive of life experience? Do they give us eyes to see?" </div>
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<div>I toy with images of myself as contemplative or mystic or inveterate listener or ceaseless questioner. All of them, really, are about constantly, unobtrusively observing, testing my hypothesis, refining my images of the way life is, and looking again, to see if I can see more of what is there and what is real.</div>
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<div>I think I'd better read Dowd, Griffin, and Brooks, to see what all the energy is about.</div>
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<div>I go a bit berserk at the endless, mindless contraversy about conflict between religious belief and scientific knowledge.</div>
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<div>David</div>
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<span style="font-family: Arial;">David Dunn</span><br style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">740 S Alton Way 9B</span><br style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Denver, CO 80247</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
<span style="font-family: Arial;">720-314-5991</span><br style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="mailto:dmdunn1@gmail.com">dmdunn1@gmail.com</a></span></div>
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<div>Herman F. Greene</div>
<div>2516 Winningham Road</div>
<div>Chapel Hill, NC 27516</div>
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