<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Wow, having four things to look at slows down the conversation. I read the two articles on the economy. I have a confession to make: I have NO IDEA, either of what needs addressing, or how to address them, to make the economy "better". My suspicion is that this slowness of recovery has more to do with the seriousness of adjustments being made (shifting energy, technology, skills, moving away from consumption as the driver, and what is required is a combination of things, by a combination of actors. However, only a suspicion, and I don't believe that tv ads, political pronouncements, or comments by commentators are actually intended to help me sort this out in any depth.</div><div><br></div><div>I found the video and captions refreshing. Though, again, I don't have the historical background or current facts that either one of the two guys had. I got distracted thinking about the right to free speech and respectful dialogue and a paper from the archives entitled "The Liberal Heresy".</div><div><br></div><div><br><br>Jim Wiegel<div><a href="mailto:Jfwiegel@yahoo.com">Jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a></div><div><br></div>It may be that we live in a time of collective heartbreak ... the sense that we might not be equal to the ecological, political and economic transitions that are necessary, that our own selfishness may be writ too deeply into our genes and that the future is therefore untenable and unreachable. We do not as yet know if this is true. -- David Whyte, “Letter from the House"<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span><div>Partners in Participation Upcoming public course opportunities:</div><div>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012</div><div>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012</div><div>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012</div><div>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 </div><div>See short video <a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55">http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55</a> and website for further details.</div></div></div><div><br>On Sep 18, 2012, at 20:28, "Susan Fertig" <<a href="mailto:susan@gmdtech.com">susan@gmdtech.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A couple of interesting articles that may be useful to the discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/09/11/an_economic_plan">http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/09/11/an_economic_plan</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/09/12/depending_on_dependency">http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/09/12/depending_on_dependency</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have a serious intellectual crush on Thomas Sowell, and one on Congressman Allen West too. The video below will probably be offensive to many on this listserv, fair warning. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><a href="http://youtu.be/2CVK4c2qu3M" target="_blank"><span class="yiv1252727860ecxyiv1659144992yshortcuts"><span style="color:#003399">http://youtu.be/2CVK4c2qu3M</span></span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.4pt;background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.4pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Here's a link with better quality and an article about it but the captioning in the one above is helpful too.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:14.4pt;background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://www.wnd.com/2011/02/266849/">http://wwwwnd.com/2011/02/266849/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Papyrus;color:#4F81BD">Susan<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a> [mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Herman Greene<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Order Ecumenical Community'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Oe List ...] A good reflection on Romney<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">We have had these “tiffs” before and, if I remember correctly, some also involved Susan. We survived and maybe we learned something.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">We should always show respect for one another, but I wouldn’t suggest any “rule change” yet. From my standpoint, there’s nothing wrong with lively exchanges unless they get chronically out of hand.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Herman<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]">[mailto:oe-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>David M Dunn<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> Order Ecumenical Community<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Oe List ...] A good reflection on Romney</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 18, 2012, at 4:56 PM, "Herman Greene" <<a href="mailto:hfgreene@mindspring.com">hfgreene@mindspring.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I’m sorry, I want to distance myself from this message. What Susan said to me didn’t bother me.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I think I agree with others that this is not the place to carry on a political debate, but it is a place to dialogue. I would be happy to hear Susan’s thoughts if she wants to share them.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">This passionate little maelstrom that we just fell into is one of the reasons that the 'listserv' technology doesn't serve us as well as the quality of our dialogue requires.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The kind of careful and thoughtful clarification of perspectives and search for one another's truth requires something closer to face to face communication (like an online meeting) or at the least, an online shared dialogue space (like a 'wiki' that provides for a stream of comments) where we can see contributions appear in real time and all of the preceding contributions. (Facebook comments are the example of the running stream, but not the example of a safe, private space for collegial dialogue.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It would be fascinating and illuminating to see of we could discover the images of fact and value (recalling Boulding) that lie behind the different perceptions expressed here about the meaning of this moment in history.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">David<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">David Dunn<br>740 S Alton Way 9B<br>Denver, CO 80247<br>--<br><a href="mailto:dmdunn1@gmail.com">dmdunn1@gmail.com</a><br>720-314-5991<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>OE mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:OE@lists.wedgeblade.net">OE@lists.wedgeblade.net</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/oe-wedgeblade.net</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>