[Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants
Sunny Walker
sunny.sunwalker at gmail.com
Thu Oct 9 16:50:37 PDT 2025
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On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 4:52 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <
oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
> Of course there are ‘abuses on both sides’ as people are people. As JD
> Vance knows, mimetic desire (I want what you have or I think you have)
> leads to violence. Violence historically is resolved by scapegoating and
> othering a relatively impotent internal group or identifying an external
> enemy, forming bonds among competitors (the enemy of my enemy is my
> friend). JD Vance’s source, the French-American historian, literary
> critic, and social philosopher René Girard, however suggested that
> Christianity shows the emptiness of scapegoating by the murder of an
> innocent victim
>
> by the cultural and political powers to reduce the violence between the
> two (from that day Pilate and the Sanhedrin got along). According to René
> Girard's mimetic theory, Jesus is the ultimate scapegoat whose crucifixion
> uniquely unmasks the violent, hidden foundation of all human culture. By
> revealing the mechanism of collective violence, Jesus offers humanity a way
> to break the cyclical power of mimetic rivalry. The Innocent Victim didn’t
> stay dead. (Anaistemi – Stood up again).
>
>
>
> So the question we were trained to raise: What is the vision? What is the
> underlying contradiction? What tactics can address it? This is so far
> beyond ‘sides’ that the word is irrelevant in our context.
>
>
>
> My overall vision is that we follow the ‘Altipipple’ concept JWM
> proposed: All the world belongs to all the people. All the economic,
> cultural and political gifts. Secondly, it is Etzioni’s work on Active
> Society: An active society is one that can envision an inclusive future
> and design and implement steps to move in that direction.
>
>
>
> Contradictions are fairly clearly stated in the document Jim provided.
> What’s left is what we will do about them. Choosing ‘sides’ instead of
> working for solutions seems to accelerate the contradictions.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> p.s. – for more on Girard, ask AI: How did Rene Girard understand the role
> of Jesus in mimetic desire?
>
>
>
> *From:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2025 12:12 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* w.schlesinger at pvida.net
> *Subject:* RE: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants
>
>
>
> Your later email elucidates this. I don’t need more information.
>
>
>
> Just as you are unwilling to hear the other side, I am probably not going
> to change my opinion even if multiple abuses are cited—there are multiple
> abuses on both sides.
>
>
>
> *Susan*
>
>
>
> Susan Fertig-Dykes
>
>
>
> *And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in
> drought . Isaiah 58:11*
>
>
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *Bill
> Schlesinger via OE
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2025 1:01 PM
> *To:* 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* w.schlesinger at pvida.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants
>
>
>
> I do. Would you like to speak to the observers who document them?
> Presbyterian Border Ministry is one; local clergy from United Methodist,
> Catholic and Presbyterian churches are another. Or - ?
>
>
>
> Bill Schlesinger
>
>
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *Susan Fertig
> via OE
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2025 10:54 AM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants
>
>
>
> I don't know of any such cases.
>
>
>
> Susan
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2KlyiUWw5TQgJDRHOBQIRH&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0rk-OKx3-LSCFOrtWHfP8U>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Seth Longacre
> via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2025 12:47:24 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Seth Longacre <sethlongacre at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Undocumented Immigrants
>
>
>
> Then Susan, how do you explain people being detained and deported when
> they show up, following the law and the direct request of the government,
> to their green card interview or another immigration process appointment?
> They have not been asked to exit, they have not remained on an expired
> visa, they have not committed any criminal offense (and in many cases, not
> even a civil offense).
>
>
>
> Seth T. Longacre
>
> Ashland, OR
>
>
>
> Unapologetically committed to equality, diversity, compassion, love, and
> justice.
>
>
>
> ———-O0ooo—
> ———–(——)—
> ————)–-/—-
> ————(_/-
> —-ooo0O—-
> —-(——)—-
> —–\-–(–
> ——\_)-
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2025, at 12:37, Susan Fertig via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Failure to exit and remaining on an expired visa is against the law.
>
>
>
> *Susan*
>
>
>
> Susan Fertig-Dykes
>
>
>
> *And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in
> drought . Isaiah 58:11*
>
>
>
> *From:* ballardica at gmail.com <ballardica at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2025 2:43 PM
> *To:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Cc:* 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Subject:* Undocumented Immigrants
>
>
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> For your edification, please read below.
>
> *By Brett Snider, Esq. | Last updated on May 31, 2019*
>
> *Unlawful Presence Is Not a Crime*
>
> Some may assume that all immigrants who are in the United States without
> legal status *must* have committed improper entry. This simply isn't the
> case. Many foreign nationals legally enter the country on a valid work or
> travel visa, but fail to exit before their visa expires
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/visa-expiration-date.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw0bDG_TNshNfPx5CEAo-88H&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw1RFQJkdSjfj974pbfDFJ37> for
> a variety of reasons.
>
> But mere unlawful presence in the country is *not* a crime. It is a
> violation of federal immigration law to remain in the country without legal
> authorization, but this violation is punishable by *civil* penalties, not
> criminal. Chief among these civil penalties is deportation or removal
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.findlaw.com/immigration/deportation-removal.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw03TuSNLJjILnsEzX0gqhHJ&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0srMgrWcuJGh21NISNG1Q6>,
> where an unlawful resident may be detained and removed from the country.
> Unlawful presence can also have negative consequences
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://corporate.findlaw.com/human-resources/ins-reinterprets-unlawful-presence-again-ameliorates-provisions.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw19r9Idrbi7tYINe78VlM9Y&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw08y5f0OSI_JmUqg4xbtHiR> for
> a resident who may seek to gain re-entry into the United States, or
> permanent residency.
>
> Both improper entry and unlawful presence should be avoided by any
> immigrant to the United States, but an illegal alien cannot be criminally
> charged or incarcerated simply for being undocumented. To learn more, check
> out FindLaw's section on Immigration Law
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.findlaw.com/immigration.html%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1TDuAXDs2DhWOR2CXVJ7uR&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw2-4ggGHDlj3azh1SyXqMLu>
> .
>
> Jack Ballard
>
>
>
> *From:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 8, 2025 8:18 AM
> *To:* ballardica at gmail.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6
>
>
>
> Yes. They have disobeyed the law in getting in illegally.
>
>
>
> Susan
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2KlyiUWw5TQgJDRHOBQIRH&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0rk-OKx3-LSCFOrtWHfP8U>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* ballardica at gmail.com <ballardica at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 7, 2025 11:24:39 PM
> *To:* 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Subject:* RE: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6
>
>
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> Do you consider undocumented immigrants criminals?
>
> Jack Ballard
>
>
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *Susan Fertig
> via OE
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 7, 2025 4:21 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6
>
>
>
> But IF (and I clearly say IF) we are harboring criminals in our facility,
> then ICE has the right to come in and remove them. I doubt we are harboring
> criminals, so it’s a moot point.
>
>
>
> *Susan*
>
>
>
> Susan Fertig-Dykes
>
>
>
> *And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in
> drought . Isaiah 58:11*
>
>
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *Randy
> Williams via OE
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2025 9:11 AM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com>; Order Ecumenical Community <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6
>
>
>
> I greatly appreciate Bill’s factual analysis with the corroborating
> information and agree fully that this is not a simple situation.
>
>
>
> But to make it as simple as possible in this situation, the ICA notice at
> the front door says something like, if you have a legal right granted by
> the courts to be here, then enter and conduct your business lawfully while
> here. If you don’t have the legal right to be here, then stay the hell out.
> I can’t imagine anything more American than that.
>
>
>
> Randy Williams
>
>
>
> On Oct 7, 2025, at 8:13 AM, Bill Schlesinger via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> 1. A partial answer: You asked: “how is it that people who entered
> our country illegally have any rights--due process or other?”
>
>
>
>
>
> The rights afforded to undocumented persons in the United States are
> derived from the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which guarantee due
> process and equal protection to all "persons" within U.S. borders, not just
> citizens. While the Constitution doesn't specifically mention undocumented
> immigrants, the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld that the word "person"
> applies to them as well.
>
>
>
> I’m confused by your statement, ‘The people that are singled out are not
> citizens.’ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has detained
> U.S. citizens, sometimes erroneously and in violation of the law. While
> federal policy explicitly states that ICE cannot use its civil immigration
> authority to arrest or detain U.S. citizens, reports and lawsuits have
> documented instances of this happening.
>
>
>
> Wrongful detentions and legal action
>
> 1. Government Accountability Office report: A 2021 GAO report found
> that between fiscal year 2015 and early 2020, ICE arrested 674 potential
> U.S. citizens, detained 121, and deported 70. The GAO also found
> insufficient record-keeping, suggesting the numbers may be higher.
> 2. Recent lawsuits and allegations: As of late 2025, new lawsuits and
> media reports have detailed multiple wrongful detentions. For example, a
> U.S.-born construction worker sued the federal government in October 2025
> after being detained twice by immigration agents during workplace raids.
>
>
>
> The perception is that ICE is racially profiling people rather than
> developing information and acting on it regarding individuals. In El Paso,
> ICE routinely detains persons showing up for their immigration hearings in
> compliance with their court orders. They are either detained in disregard
> of their compliance, or told that their applications have been
> ‘administratively terminated’ with no due process.
>
>
>
> Desperate people do desperate things. However, a substantial body of
> research indicates that undocumented persons generally commit violent
> offenses at significantly lower rates than U.S.-born citizens. The
> assertion that immigrants are more prone to crime is not supported by
> evidence. In fact, national and state-level studies consistently show that
> undocumented immigrants have a lower propensity for both violent and
> property crimes.
>
> Key findings from research
>
> 1. Texas arrest data: A 2020 study in the Proceedings of the
> National Academy of Sciences used unique data from the Texas Department of
> Public Safety (the only state that records criminal arrests by immigration
> status) to compare felony arrest rates. It found that between 2012 and 2018:
>
> 1. U.S.-born citizens were over two times more likely to be
> arrested for violent crimes than undocumented immigrants.
>
> 2. Arrest rates for specific violent felonies, like homicide and
> assault, were considerably lower for undocumented immigrants.
>
> 2. National Incarceration Rates: A 2025 analysis by the Cato
> Institute
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/immigrants-cut-victimization-rates-boost-crime-reporting%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3o3Z5WZIguIr9pI64LxeH9&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw3N4ZQnfS7KLSyGLVT7UBt-> using
> census data found that undocumented immigrants have a lower incarceration
> rate than native-born Americans.
>
> 1. In 2023, the incarceration rate for undocumented immigrants was
> 613 per 100,000, compared to 1,221 per 100,000 for native-born Americans.
>
> 2. Even when factoring in detention for immigration violations, the
> incarceration rate for undocumented immigrants remains lower than that of
> native-born citizens.
>
> 3. FBI data and historical trends: A 2024 analysis by the American
> Immigration Council
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/fact-sheet/debunking-myth-immigrants-and-crime/%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1760633651000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw0gfFhckvD2g9dvZlEySmue&source=gmail-imap&ust=1760638339000000&usg=AOvVaw0XQpn93883PYe_ohQIr3CY> found
> that as the share of immigrants in the U.S. population increased between
> 1980 and 2022, the overall crime rate decreased significantly. During this
> period, the violent crime rate dropped by 34.5%
>
> 1. You said, ‘the sheer volume of trafficked individuals who were
> victimized by those “importing” them into our country.’
>
>
>
> I live in El Paso. Coyotes – the ‘traffickers’ – have little regard for
> the people they transport and have often left them to die. Knowing this,
> people still apply to their services even today. They do this out of
> desperation – and faith. They ‘trust in God’ to see them through in the
> face of gangs and often terror in their home situations (not all regions
> are alike) and see no alternative but finding ‘safe haven’ in the USA.
> Unfortunately neither political party has acted to create a humane and
> functional system to allow legal entry under internationally accepted
> asylum standards. The system has been politicized with ‘special access’
> for those in favor of the ruling party(ies). And this changes arbitrarily
> (see what’s happened with Haitians now being sent back to chaos after being
> here for 30 years).
>
>
>
> Lost children – many are DACA recipients and being told that they must now
> go to a country where they do not speak the language, to parents ill
> prepared to receive them.
>
>
>
> This is not a simple situation.
>
>
>
> FWIW
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Schlesinger
>
> (915) 490-6148 Cell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *Susan Fertig
> via OE
> *Sent:* Monday, October 6, 2025 7:41 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> *Cc:* Susan Fertig <sfertig at blueskytech.us>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6
>
>
>
> Larry, I respect your points.
>
>
>
> My concern is based on:
>
> 2. the hordes of people tearing down the barricades put up to keep
> them out in the Biden Administration
> 3. the numbers of violent criminals and not so violent criminals that
> make it difficult to discern who is and who isn’t
> 4. the sheer volume of trafficked individuals who were victimized by
> those “importing” them into our country
> 5. the number of lost, unaccompanied children who have never been
> recovered and who should be sent back to their parents
>
>
>
> My lack of concern is based on:
>
> 2. how is it that people who entered our country illegally have any
> rights--due process or other?
>
> 3. How is it that we are not worried about ICE officers being
> identified when the hordes of violent protesters and those who openly
> threaten ICE wear masks routinely?
>
>
>
> I do take issue with your assertion that “No matter how many white men go
> on killing sprees in the US we are not singled out…”
>
> I would state that ”No matter how many black or brown or white men…”
>
> The people that are singled out are not American citizens.
>
>
>
> I often find Trump’s rhetoric offensive. I often find he overstates for
> effect, which I don’t condone. I often find him bragging, which I abhor.
>
> That said, I support him as President—God is big enough that He can use
> anybody, no matter how flawed, for His purposes.
>
>
>
> I often find the rhetoric used against the “other side” abhorrent as
> well—to talk of openly supporting killing anyone who doesn’t agree with
> them or suggests an idea that is different is horrible.
>
>
>
> *Susan*
>
>
>
> Susan Fertig-Dykes
>
>
>
> *And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in
> drought . Isaiah 58:11*
>
>
>
> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> *On Behalf Of *Lawrence
> Philbrook via OE
> *Sent:* Monday, October 06, 2025 9:18 PM
> *To:* oe at lists.wedgeblade.net
> *Cc:* Lawrence Philbrook <icalarry at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 163, Issue 6
>
>
>
> Susan you raise a valid question
>
>
>
> The ICE challenge in America and the ICA response, what is the frame of
> reference?
>
>
>
> Yes there is broad agreement that too many illegal and unvetted immigrants
> were allowed into the US. Especially those who committed crimes in their
> own country and in the US. *These people are officially the publicized
> target of the ICE raids.* However Current numbers - 42,755 out of 59,762
> —or 71.5% held in ICE detention have no criminal conviction according to
> data current as of September 21, 2025.
>
>
>
> ICE has responsibility to apprehend and return people who are in the US
> illegally. They have a difficult and sometimes dangerous job. It has been
> made more complicated by the political climate and expectations placed on
> them by consecutive administrations. Their legal status can literally
> change day to day based on the administration withdrawing legal status that
> had been given earlier. The current administration does these changes
> overnight making it very difficult for the “illegals” to know they are
> illegal. This can affect hundreds of thousands of people with each
> decision.
>
>
>
> The manner in which they implement their job is in question
>
> 1. Do they follow due process laws which are required in our country
> whether you are a citizen or not
> 2. Do they appear masked, weapons drawn and without warrants
> 3. Do they only stop and arrest illegal immigrants (the worst of the
> worst criminals) or stop and hold all people who speak Spanish and look
> like they are immigrants or are at places where “illegals” look for
> employment to make sure they have caught and deported enough people for
> their quota.
> 4. The consequence being American Citizens and legal immigrants being
> handcuffed and held hours or days - disrupting their lives especially those
> who live paycheck to paycheck simply to make the officers catching process
> simpler.
> 5. Their leadership is not making it easier to believe they are not
> intentionally harassing American citizens who “fit the description"
> 6. American citizens who are children are being deported without due
> process or a care structure.
>
>
>
> As an old white American Male I can not imagine this happening to me. No
> matter how many white men go on killing sprees in the US we are not singled
> out as an issue.
>
>
>
> Evelyn being Japanese American has family history about the US sending
> troops to round them up and send them to camps.
>
>
>
> ICE and the republican politicians bragging about The Aligator Alcatraz
> with most of the people inside being without any other criminal actions,
> does not stimulate trust in the system.
>
>
>
> Am I missing something that you are seeing that is different than the
> above?
>
>
>
> With respect,
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
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