[Oe List ...] My Son's Reaction to Iron Boy and What He Didn't know about his early life

Mon Dec 8 07:16:01 PST 2025

I am so moved by the responses I have received, several of which came to my
personal email, which is hfgreenenc at gmail.com.

Thank you all so much.

I was reminded of an article I wrote earlier about my life in the Order.
Here it is: All Life Is Broken: Embrace the Future with Vision.
<https://1drv.ms/b/c/793bb8de8be9afde/Ed6v6YveuDsggHkBNgEAAAABmYCmi0kjHzV7brxuUosPzw?e=vZLLXK>

Herman

On Sun, Dec 7, 2025 at 9:35 PM James Wiegel via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
wrote:

> The NYT article seems quite good and mentions stuff I did not know.
>
>  Between what is happening with the federal government and all the poly
> crises being constantly reported, I am going a bit crazy with today and
> losing my grip on stuff from the 60’s — except when some old moment or song
> or photo jumps up in my mind.
> Jim Wiegel
>
> “…the long work
> of turning their lives
> into a celebration
> is not easy. Come and let us talk“.
>
> The Sunflowers. Mary Oliver
>
> On Dec 7, 2025, at 4:25 PM, David Marshall via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
> wrote:
>
> 
> Herman,
>
> Thank you for your heartfelt and vulnerable share with the OE community.
> Although I've ton a ton of online research about the Order, EI, and ICA, I
> had never come across this interesting New York Times article. What a
> revealing gift from your son, albeit under difficult circumstances.
>
> I would be happy to speak with Nate if he wants to understand how I came
> through this process. On a related note for all of us, I recommend a
> touching interview my wife Kate and I watched last night between Anderson
> Cooper and Ken Burns about family grief. It's part of a bigger series on
> grief by Anderson Cooper called "All There Is." <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vluz9IuU010> Both Cooper and Burns lost
> they fathers at a young age, and have struggled throughout adulthood with
> grief. My grief of losing my dad when I was a kid was different, because he
> was still alive, just not available to me me as his child, so I had a
> chance to resurrect him as an adult in a way that Cooper and Burns could
> not. I hope you and Nate have a breakthrough as well. But as Ken Burns said
> in the interview, "the half-life of grief is endless," never truly
> recovering from the loss, but learning to cope and be healthy.
>
> In my opinion, many Order alumni and ICA folks get hung up on whether the
> Order was a cult or not. Even my my dad's memoir, which he wrote earlier
> this year before he died, he maintained it was not a cult, but that's
> because his definition of a cult is killing yourself with poisoned Kool Aid
> like Jim Jones did with his flock. He thought if he acknowledge it was a
> cult, then he couldn't review his mentor Joe Mathews anymore. The word cult
> covers a broad range of unhealthy behaviors, which the Order was definitely
> practicing, but in my mind, they were not malicious and conscious. And it's
> equally difficult to conclude that JWM was either good or evil; he was
> human like the rest of us, with brilliant and flawed parts. I think we can
> view the Order and JWM with nuanced lenses and conclude "both/and" and not
> "either/or" regarding its position on the cult spectrum of benign to
> deadly. Healthy learning for what comes next in our own death/rebirth lives.
>
> Grace, Peace, & Love,
>
> David Marshall
> Author of *IRON BOY: Searching for Freedom in a Family Religious Order
> <https://www.amazon.com/IRON-BOY-Searching-Freedom-Religious/dp/B0FCMMVHDC/>*
> Substack Article: CAN CULTS STILL DO GOOD WORK: Do Good Intentions &
> Mission Success Compensate for Collateral Damage?
> <https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?utm_campaign=post-expanded-share&utm_medium=post%20viewer>
> Order/EI/ICA Alumnus: 1962-1974
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2025 at 12:26 PM Herman Greene via OE <
> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
>> My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One
>> year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a
>> few weeks old we found a infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and
>> took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little
>> programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I
>> believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.
>>
>> He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he
>> has long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is
>> undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two
>> children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.
>>
>> He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times
>> from 1968.
>> https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite-controversy.html.
>> It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and
>> read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?).
>> Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on
>> their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in
>> EI.
>>
>> He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews
>> was of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in
>> August 1975 when he was almost two.
>>
>> He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for
>> Collateral damage.
>>
>> I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the
>> "collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult,
>> though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others
>> because I don't want to associate the Order with them).
>>
>> I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first
>> two years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him.
>> He was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in
>> his early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored
>> him.
>>
>> I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone
>> would be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi)
>> about the Order and children in the Order.
>>
>> Herman
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman
>> via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM
>> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> *Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
>> Damage?
>>
>>
>> Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you
>> experienced. I believe you.
>>
>> What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside
>> communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long,
>> many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of
>> them.
>>
>> I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we
>> were immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t
>> ask the hard questions soon enough.
>>
>> I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability,
>> not just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more
>> fully now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.
>>
>> Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.
>>
>> Don Bushman
>>
>> 828-292-9696
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Shelley,
>>
>> OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands
>> of someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.
>>
>> I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply
>> appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth.  But also
>> appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly
>> would not have been available to him at that youthful time.
>>
>> For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until
>> 1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member,  was charged by
>> JWM to write the Polity Document.  And in that work, we sifted through our
>> collective living experience to name those 24.  Who knows, there may have
>> been more?
>>
>> What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who
>> lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear:  *this
>> was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*
>>
>> I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in
>> Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India.
>> But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*
>>
>> Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept
>> that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.
>>
>> With love and respect,
>>
>> Marilyn
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is an interesting intellectual,  hypothetical, philosophical
>> discussion.
>>
>> If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious
>> house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.
>>
>> Shelley Hahn
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are
>> experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman
>> who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.
>>
>> Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is
>> currently in vogue will produce a better generation?
>>
>> I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family
>> experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off
>> the mark than many other popular theories today.
>>
>> And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces
>> collateral damage.
>>
>> Cheryl Hood
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the
>> ‘sensitive and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it
>> became aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society
>> in the act of repentance.  That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’
>>
>>
>>
>> Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process.  I
>> remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to
>> replace all the male gender language in our songs.  We’ve discovered and
>> turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the
>> treatment of children (ours and others) is no different.  It is a constant
>> process.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want
>> Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white
>> supremacy privilege.
>>
>>
>>
>> Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally
>> translates as ‘new mind.’  It isn’t being guilty or sorry.  It’s doing the
>> change that HRN discusses.  It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the
>> ‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and
>> developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be
>> part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing
>> of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.”  T – Total
>> Depravity.  Everybody’s screwed up.  Deal with it.  U – Unconditional
>> Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be
>> responsible.  L- Limited Atonement.  Some people ‘get it.’  Some don’t.
>> And you can’t tell the difference.  I – irresistible Grace.  We are all
>> beloved.  P – Perseverance of the Saints.  Once you wake up, you can’t go
>> back to sleep.  You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you
>> can’t go back to sleep.
>>
>>
>>
>> FWIW.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM
>> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> *Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; William
>> Schlesinger <w.schlesinger at pvida.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
>> Damage?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe
>> the difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community
>> or whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop
>> it or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it
>> tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks
>> up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some
>> issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic
>> Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact
>> that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and
>> therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents.
>> What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to
>> ponder.
>>
>> Randy Williams
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Schlesinger
>>
>> Project Vida
>>
>> 3607 Rivera Avenue
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> El Paso, TX 79905
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> (915) 490-6148 Cell
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <
>> oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25)
>> have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on
>> Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the
>> wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or
>> on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on
>> Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.
>>
>> <Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>
>>
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