[Oe List ...] My Son's Reaction to Iron Boy and What He Didn't know about his early life

Sun Dec 7 12:25:42 PST 2025

My son Nathan was in the order for the first two years of his life. One
year in New Orleans and one year at Kemper. In New Orleans after he was a
few weeks old we found a infant-care facility in a Catholic charity and
took him there each day. There were around cribs and there was little
programming. During his year at Kemper he was in the pre-school and I
believe my then wife Joy was in charge of the pre-school.

He is now 53. He has had anger issues and emotional swings. He says he has
long had trust issues with me and feels I haven't seen him. He is
undergoing therapy and is a few weeks in. He is married and has two
children. He is in the midst of mid-life crisis.

He began asking me about the Order. He found this article in the NY Times
from 1968.
https://www.nytimes.com/1968/11/09/archives/new-religious-cult-grows-despite-controversy.html.
It describes EI as a cult. He then found David Marshall's book online and
read it. He feels he has found a key to his issues of "abandonment"(?).
Unlike other children who grew up and can reflect for better and worse on
their experience as EI children, Nate has no direct memories of his time in
EI.

He keeps pressing me on whether EI was a cult and whether Joe Matthews was
of very bad character. In tears he thanks me for leaving the Order in
August 1975 when he was almost two.

He also read David's blog about whether Good Intentions make up for
Collateral damage.

I explain to him the good things we did and I also acknowledge the
"collateral damage." I acknowledge that the Order had aspects of a cult,
though it was not the Moonies or Jim Jones (I don't mention these others
because I don't want to associate the Order with them).

I think about how psychologists write about the importance of the first two
years of life and try to imagine what influence that period had on him. He
was never separated from Joy and I and I always thought he was happy in his
early years. I tell him about how many adults cared for him and adored him.

I know there has been a group for Order Children. I wonder if anyone would
be willing and interested in talking to Nate (his nickname is Naechi) about
the Order and children in the Order.

Herman

------------------------------
*From:* OE <oe-bounces at lists.wedgeblade.net> on behalf of Don Bushman via
OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:10:05 PM
*To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
*Cc:* Don Bushman <onedonbushman at gmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
Damage?

Shelley, thank you for speaking up. No one should have to endure what you
experienced. I believe you.

What you shared is a painful reminder of how abuse hides inside
communities—even those built on service, spirit, and trust. For too long,
many of us failed to see it. Or chose not to look closely. I was one of
them.

I used to think that because we prayed, planned, and cared deeply, we were
immune to the failings of other institutions. We weren’t. And I didn’t ask
the hard questions soon enough.

I now see how essential it is to create real safety and accountability, not
just good intentions. I can’t change the past, but I can listen more fully
now—and speak more plainly when truth needs a witness.

Your voice matters. I’m grateful you used it here.

Don Bushman

828-292-9696

On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 4:58 PM Mari Crocker via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
wrote:

Dear Shelley,

OMG, I was stunned to read what you, at age 11, encountered at the hands of
someone the Order had then assigned as First Prior.

I just read David Marshall’s book from cover to cover, and deeply
appreciated his honesty, his “author’s voice” as a youth.  But also
appreciated his research grounding from archives documents that clearly
would not have been available to him at that youthful time.

For example, the 24 OE Operating Principles had not been “codified” until
1976 when the Global Panchayat , of which I was a member,  was charged by
JWM to write the Polity Document.  And in that work, we sifted through our
collective living experience to name those 24.  Who knows, there may have
been more?

What you put forth in your email is so very important for all of us who
lived into this experiment with passion and intentionality to hear:  *this
was not anywhere close to being acceptable.*

I’m not sure where I was when you were 11, but I may have been in
Singapore, birthing my twins, or doing ITIs in Ethiopia or HDTSs in India.
But *I am horrified that you experienced that.*

Yes, I need you to tell us more, because “secrets” seem to have been kept
that even during our 2000 Reunion, were never put to rest.

With love and respect,

Marilyn

On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:51 PM, Shelley Hahn via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
wrote:

This is an interesting intellectual,  hypothetical, philosophical
discussion.

If you want to hear from someone who was sent at age 11 to a religious
house with a pedophile as a First Prior, DM me.

Shelley Hahn

On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 2:28 PM Cheryl Hood via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
wrote:

What we should remember is that ALL forms of child-rearing are
experimental. The real purpose of procreation is to produce the speciman
who will survive and (hopefully) help the planet survive in the process.

Do we think that the individualized personal preening and pruning that is
currently in vogue will produce a better generation?

I'm not rationalizing or excusing the results or the Order's Family
experiment; just pointing out that, as an experiment, it was no further off
the mark than many other popular theories today.

And, that, yes, as Bill and Randy point out: Everything produces collateral
damage.

Cheryl Hood

On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 2:27 PM Bill Schlesinger via OE <
oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

HRN described the social pioneering function of ‘church’ as the ‘sensitive
and responsive part of every institution’ that repented when it became
aware of innocent suffering, changed its own use, and leads society in the
act of repentance.  That was the ‘radical demonstration of faith.’

Discovering innocent suffering in our systems is a constant process.  I
remember when one of us went into the data system we had at the time to
replace all the male gender language in our songs.  We’ve discovered and
turned our back on homophobia (JWM had a hard time with that one), and the
treatment of children (ours and others) is no different.  It is a constant
process.

I have found ‘My Grandmother’s Hands’ (Thriftbooks if you don’t want
Amazon) helpful on concrete ways of understanding and repenting of white
supremacy privilege.

Metanoia – the Greek word we translate as ‘repentance’ – literally
translates as ‘new mind.’  It isn’t being guilty or sorry.  It’s doing the
change that HRN discusses.  It’s helpful to revisit damage done, but the
‘test’ is how it translates to change in valuing our children and
developing and supporting ways to care for them that – inevitably – will be
part of future discoveries of innocent suffering.

Carol and I talk with Don Bushman – a point of difference is my embracing
of a really conservative theological concept – ‘TULIP.”  T – Total
Depravity.  Everybody’s screwed up.  Deal with it.  U – Unconditional
Election. No matter how screwed up we are, we’re still called to be
responsible.  L- Limited Atonement.  Some people ‘get it.’  Some don’t.
And you can’t tell the difference.  I – irresistible Grace.  We are all
beloved.  P – Perseverance of the Saints.  Once you wake up, you can’t go
back to sleep.  You can do a lot of damage to yourself and others, but you
can’t go back to sleep.

FWIW.

Bill

*From:* Randy Williams <randycw1938 at gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 2:36 PM
*To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
*Cc:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>; William
Schlesinger <w.schlesinger at pvida.net>
*Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Do Good Intentions Make Up for Collateral
Damage?

Bill, that’s a good question, and my answer is, probably not. So maybe the
difference is whether the “thing” — organization, movement, community or
whatever — acknowledges the collateral damage it causes, tries to stop it
or at least minimize it, and then how it talks about, i.e., the story it
tells about it, to itself and to others. And finally, how the story stacks
up against the truth. If it doesn’t, then my guess is, the “thing” has some
issues. Two examples I would use are the loss of credibility the Catholic
Church has experienced over its denial of the sexual abuse, and the fact
that the MAGA movement, if that’s what it is, is largely based on a lie and
therefore has never had any credibility to lose outside its own adherents.
What all this says about or has to do with the O:E, EI, ICA is something to
ponder.

Randy Williams

On Jun 28, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Schlesinger via OE <
oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:

Is there anything that doesn't do collateral damage?

Bill Schlesinger

Project Vida

3607 Rivera Avenue
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>

El Paso, TX 79905
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/3607+Rivera+Avenue+El+Paso,+TX+79905?entry=gmail&source=g>

(915) 490-6148 Cell

On Sat, Jun 28, 2025, 1:42 PM David Marshall via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
wrote:

Former Order: Ecumenical & Ecumencal Institute Colleagues,

Early IRON BOY readers (paperback & ebook published on Amazon on 6/15/25)
have asked me about this. In response, I just published my CULTS article on
Substack. I imagine this will rub some folks on both sides of the aisle the
wrong way, but it's my truth. It's too long (five pages) to publish here or
on Facebook, so if you read it and have comments, you can either do so on
Substack or on this more private thread. Thank you.

<Instagram-Cults-Image_6-28-25.jpg>

https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r=23ftwm&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
<https://www.google.com/url?q=https://open.substack.com/pub/marshallbooks/p/can-cults-still-do-good-work?r%3D23ftwm%26utm_campaign%3Dpost%26utm_medium%3Dweb%26showWelcomeOnShare%3Dfalse&source=gmail-imap&ust=1751747757000000&usg=AOvVaw2ZepQzQbodsFZtFsYBXhuV>

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