[Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas

Sat Jun 14 14:46:54 PDT 2014

Thanks for your thoughtful and historical response, Marshall. Your 
comment, "I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a 
HUGE distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church 
should be struggling to address" is the only point I was attempting 
to make. Certainly I agree that same sex marriages should be honored 
in United Methodism. It would be a shame for the church to split over this.

It has forced me to distinguish between the Church as institution and 
the Church as movement. The former exists to enable the latter, but 
often it lags behind. It even tends to function to perpetuate itself 
rather than its cause. When that happens, it's due for a reform. It 
may even be that the institutional church is wrestling with the major 
issue of accommodating diversity that affects societies around the 
world. If it's at that level, then maybe this is not a non-issue. 
Thanks for bringing up this level of the conversation.

The coffee smells like Illy latte!

John

At 03:02 PM 6/14/2014, George Holcombe wrote:
>Dear Marshall, I don't believe John is "talking out of school."  I'm 
>sure he can speak for himself, but LBGT for our society is a 
>non-issue, it's over.  Gay marriage will be the law of the 
>land.  Every day the LBGT community is gaining ground.  For the 
>younger generation it's a non-issue.  The UMC is just running into a 
>stone wall.  It would be much better if they let loose of the 
>prejudice and got on with the business at hand.  Climate Change, 
>poverty, corptocracy, just to name a few need action.  I am glad to 
>see our Board of Pensions removing investments from companies that 
>support Israel, but there's lots more stuff we need to be about.
>
>We have a good bunch of local clergy who stand with us who've signed 
>the pledge.  The "Conservatives" (although I'm not sure that's the 
>correct appellation) are going to scream their heads off, but time 
>is marching on.  For the UMC a real LGBT issue is going to be how we 
>support the gays in Africa and elsewhere and deal with a false 
>interpretation of scripture, discipline and tradition that leads to 
>hatred and violence.
>
>It's happening.  Reality is staring us in the face.
>
>George Holcombe
>14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
>Austin TX 78728
>Mobile 512/252-2756
><mailto:grholcombe at gmail.com>grholcombe at gmail.com
>
>"Whatever the problem, community is the answer.  There is no power 
>greater than a community discovering what it cares about."  Margaret Wheatley
>
>
>On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:01 PM, W. J. via OE 
><<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>
>>George Holcombe is one of the Texas 'rebels'
>>Marshall Jones
>><http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>10 Retired 
>>Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings of Same-Sex Couples
>><http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>
>>image
>>
>><http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>10 Retired 
>>Clergy Say They Will Officiate at Weddings ...
>>Even though their denomination's policy officially prohibits clergy 
>>from officiating at the wedding of any same-sex couple at the risk 
>>of losing their ordination, t...
>><http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/06/13/texas-10/>View on 
>>unitedmethod...
>>Preview by Yahoo
>>
>>
>>
>>On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:38 PM, W. J. via OE 
>><<mailto:oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Methodism seems to be teetering on the brink of rebellion, 
>>confrontation, and schism.You can follow the rapid escalation of 
>>Methodist conflict in the following articles:
>>
>><http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>Methodists 
>>fear split over same-sex marriage
>><http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>
>>image
>>
>><http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>Methodists 
>>fear split over same-sex marriage
>>Evan as more states legalize gay marriage, United Methodist leaders 
>>appear at an impasse.
>><http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/08/methodists-fear-split-over-same-sex-marriage/10184053/>View 
>>on www.usatoda...
>>Preview by Yahoo
>>
>><http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split>http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2014-03/time-split
>>http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/08/conservative-church-leaders-consult-divisions-umc/
>><http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-lambrecht/>http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/02/conversation-good-newss-tom-lambrecht/
>>http://unitedmethodistreporter.com/2014/04/01/good-news-releases-statement-calling-present-state-umc-untenable/ 
>>
>>
>>In the light of the current 'conversation' in Methodist circles 
>>cited above, I find John Epps' characterization of the key conflict 
>>over the Discipline as a "non-issue" very puzzling.
>>
>>If I were a betting man, I'd bet about 50 million bucks that Bill 
>>McElvaney, Tom Ogletree, and Bishops McLee, Johnson, and Talbert 
>>(as well as many others) would NOT call 'ceremonies of homosexual 
>>union' a "non-issue" for United Methodists.
>>
>>I agree with John's implied point that at minimum it's a HUGE 
>>distraction from the REAL missional issues that the church should 
>>be struggling to address.
>>
>>But when I look through the keyhole of this so-called "non-issue" 
>>that threatens denominational schism (similar to the schism over 
>>slavery in 1844), what I see looming are the VERY SAME 
>>theological/cultural issues that define the cultural rift (I 
>>accidentally typed 'risk'--there's that too!) with the Tea Party 
>>radical right wing.
>>
>>The 'Good News' contingent is going whole hog to use Legalism, 
>>Literalism, and Authoritarianism to defrock noncompliant Methodist 
>>clergy, retired seminary presidents, and bishops. This is about 
>>instilling fear in bishops and clergy alike by using the Discipline 
>>to crack down on dissenters.
>>
>>So with all respect due to John, I cannot call this a "non-issue".
>>
>>Our profound cultural and theological biases around 
>>'heteronormativity' are as much of a HUGE issue as our biases 
>>around the racial inferiority of people of color and female 
>>submission to male dominance (not to mention the economic 
>>imperialism of the "1%").
>>
>>I grew up in what had been the Methodist Episcopal Church, South 
>>until the year before I was born. That geographic contingent in 
>>reunited Methodism retained its political and cultural clout as the 
>>lily-white Southeastern Jurisdiction until the Central Jurisdiction 
>>was dissolved in 1968 as a condition of union with the EUB's.
>>
>>I mention this ancient history to point out that the cultural 
>>legacy enshrined in the 'Good News' version of conservative 
>>southern Methodism is the legacy of slavery and 'White Supremacy' 
>>that their white male Methodist ancestors fought and died to preserve forever.
>>
>>Bishop Francis Asbury (whose name is legendary to this day in 
>>western North Carolina) wrote in his journal that on 11/30/1810 he 
>>spent the night (and very likely preached in the attic chapel) in 
>>the house Jacob Shook built in 1795 in what is now Clyde, NC near 
>>Lake Junaluska.
>>Friday our troubles began at a foaming, roaring stream, which hid 
>>the rocks. At Catahouche I walked over a log, but then O the 
>>mountains- height after height and five miles over! After crossing 
>>many streams and after losing ourselves in the woods for a time, 
>>about 9 o'clock at night we gratefully came to Vater Shucks.
>>
>>If you visit Jacob Shook's house today, you can see a handwritten 
>>receipt for the purchase of several slaves. After he died in 1837 
>>his house and farmland was purchased by members of the Welch 
>>family, who together had about 150 slaves. I mention this to 
>>illustrate that slavery was considered economically 'necessary' and 
>>normalized by this part of white Methodism as God's Will for 
>>Africans. Even Asbury failed to object, though he denounced slavery 
>>and pleaded for abolition with George Washington.
>>
>>In Clyde and throughout Haywood County the heritage of slavery is 
>>almost totally invisible today. The slave cabins are long gone, as 
>>are the descendants of slaves who worked the plantations. The 
>>county is about 96% white, 1% black, and only 1/2% Native American.
>>
>>The cultural reality of white male dominance is so pervasive, 
>>normalized, and unconsciously internalized that residents and 
>>visitors alike don't even think about it. When they visit nearby 
>>Cherokee, NC, they focus more on the lure of the casino than on the 
>>hidden-in-plain-sight reality of 'ethnic cleansing' that forced the 
>>vast majority of the Cherokee Nation to endure a death march to 
>>Oklahoma. Even this tragic history has been reduced to summer 
>>theatre for tourists.
>>
>>Since 1972 United Methodist clergy have been required to enforce 
>>the standards of 'heteronormativity' to eliminate what Aquinas 
>>called the 'vice against nature', which includes any and every 
>>sexual act except for heterosexual intercourse in the famous 
>>missionary position (reserved exclusively for those legally and 
>>heterosexually married, of course!). Aquinas seems unconcerned with 
>>the fact that 70% of women can't orgasm that way. Perhaps he was 
>>concerned only that women did their procreative duty, whether they 
>>enjoyed it or not.
>>
>>Reserving 'holy matrimony' for certain classes of people makes 
>>everybody else's sexuality second class, promoting 'sexual 
>>cleansing' in the church.
>>
>>The Legalism, Literalism, and Authoritarianism of the Methodist 
>>system leads to a Taliban concept of justice that inevitably exacts 
>>severe punishment of violators. Methodists exemplify the tyranny of 
>>majority rule with zero tolerance for minority views within the system.
>>
>>If your upcoming wedding would be welcomed in a Methodist Church, 
>>that's because you are enjoying hetero privilege (and probably 
>>taking it for granted).
>>
>>White male supremacy takes sexual privileging for granted. If you 
>>owned slaves, you could totally control and manipulate them 
>>sexually. You could have sexual intercourse and father 
>>'illegitimate' children with people of color who were coerced or 
>>bullied, or who used your sexual interest to acquire personal 
>>benefits. Often family members could not protect them. You could 
>>invoke 'Racial Purity' to constrain and manipulate white women 
>>sexually. You could demand 'monogamy' from your wife to control her 
>>sexual interest in other people, while you ignored that standard in 
>>your own behavior.
>>
>>Now the likes of Maxie Dunham and Fred Phelps simply reflect the 
>>mindset of white male sexual privilege. Since Loving vs. Virginia 
>>they can't get away with railing against 'miscegenation.' Now their 
>>last refuge is their obsession with the evil of non-procreative 
>>sexual coupling symbolized in 'ceremonies of homosexual union.'
>>
>>And yet John Epps calls this a "non-issue." I say: wake up and 
>>smell the coffee, John!
>>
>>Marshall Jones
>>
>>From: JOHN L. EPPS <<mailto:jlepps at pc.jaring.my>jlepps at pc.jaring.my>
>>To: W. J. <<mailto:synergi at yahoo.com>synergi at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:14 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rocking the Methodist boat in Texas
>>
>>Thanks Marshall.
>>
>>When I was at Perkins, Bill McElvaney, Bill Holmes, and  the late Will
>>Bailey were the three Dallas "role models" for the forward-looking
>>theologs. All three were students of Joe. It's good to see he's still
>>pushing the envelope, though it's a shame that this non-issue takes so
>>much energy.
>>
>>Quoting "W. J." <<mailto:synergi at yahoo.com>synergi at yahoo.com>:
>>
>> > more Methodist news from Texas:
>> >
>><http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-mcelvaney/>http://um-insight.net/issues-section/supervisory-response-under-way-for-rev-mcelvaney/
>> >
>> > Marshall
>>
>>
>>
>>
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