<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">I would love to see Wayne's reflections.<div>(And you are still amazing and going and going and going). Did that beach walk with Jeanette give you focus?<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">Jim Wiegel</span><br><div>
<p class="p1"><span class="s1" style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">“We are all time travelers journeying into the future. But let us make that future a place we want to visit. “ </span><span style="font-size: 13pt; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Stephen Hawking</span></p></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Mar 15, 2025, at 8:14 PM, Jo Nelson via Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">Hi, all,</span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">I have been cleaning up many files from ICA Associates as a prelude to scanning important insights to scan and getting rid of all the paper files. I found this printed post that John Epps sent in 2004 and I think it is really prescient about our times in 2025. Much of what he says here about the “00’s” is even more stronger and evident now. Certainly it seems blatantly obvious to me now. </span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">I think this is worth reading and may catalyze our creative thinking.</span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt;"><font color="#111111" face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">I also found a draft paper of Wayne</span><span style="caret-color: rgb(17, 17, 17); font-size: 15.333333px; letter-spacing: -0.133333px;">’</span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">s thoughts that I think were catalyzed by John</span><span style="font-size: 15.333333px; letter-spacing: -0.133333px;">’</span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">s post. Two versions of it were next to John</span><span style="font-size: 15.333333px; letter-spacing: -0.133333px;">’</span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">s post in the file folder. I could also send it later if there is interest. </span></font></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"><br></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"><b style="font-size: 11pt; text-indent: 0.25pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 13.5pt; line-height: 17.639999px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Subject: [DIALOGUE]<span style="letter-spacing: 1.65pt;"> </span>some thoughts on<span style="letter-spacing: -0.15pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"> </span>spirit mood and questions </span></b></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"><b style="font-size: 11pt; text-indent: 0.25pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 13.5pt; line-height: 17.639999px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Date:<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"></span></span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="text-indent: 0.25pt; font-size: 12.5pt; line-height: 16.333332px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(1, 1, 1);">Thursday,<span style="letter-spacing: 4pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="text-indent: 0.25pt; font-size: 12.5pt; line-height: 16.333332px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">March<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>11,<span style="letter-spacing: 4pt;"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="text-indent: 0.25pt; font-size: 12.5pt; line-height: 16.333332px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(1, 1, 1);">2004<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>9: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="text-indent: 0.25pt; font-size: 12.5pt; line-height: 16.333332px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">29<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>PM</span></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"><br></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 13.7pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17); letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">Colleagues:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.75pt 0cm 0.0001pt 7.1pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">Here are some<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span>thoughts<span style="letter-spacing: 0.5pt;"> </span>on<span style="letter-spacing: 0.85pt;"> </span>what<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span>may<span style="letter-spacing: 0.75pt;"> </span>be<span style="letter-spacing: 0.15pt;"> </span>going<span style="letter-spacing: 0.85pt;"> </span><span style="letter-spacing: -0.25pt;">on:</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.05pt 0cm 0.0001pt 6.7pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">The<span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;"> </span>Spirit<span style="letter-spacing: 0.5pt;"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing: 1.1pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.15pt;"> </span><span style="letter-spacing: -0.25pt;">00s</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 12.35pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 6.8pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: 0.05pt; line-height: 13.34px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">We<span style="letter-spacing: -0.45pt;"> </span>once<span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;"> </span>analyzed<span style="letter-spacing: 1.15pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.25pt;"> </span>spirit mood of the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.05pt;"> </span>times through these<span style="letter-spacing: -0.5pt;"> </span>categories: An External Situation creates and Internal Crisis which raises an Existential Question from which we try to Escape.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 12.1pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 6.8pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">For me in the 80s the External Situation was the collapse of boundaries which created the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.45pt;"> </span>Internal Crisis of inescapable diversity which raised the Existential Question of Where do I stand? We escaped through mindless <span style="letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">relativism.</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 12.2pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 7.35pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.4pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">It<span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;"> </span>seems to me the 90s were a time in which the External Situation featured an emphasis on the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.05pt;"> </span>intangibles, which raised the Internal Crisis of meaning which raised the Existential Question of "What is my worth? We escaped through spiritualism.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.95pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 7.2pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: 0.45pt; line-height: 14.106667px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">Now we're into the 00s.<span style="letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"> </span>The External Situation is a collapse of stabilizing structures (economic, political and cultural - perhaps 9-11 is a symbol<span style="letter-spacing: 1.7pt;"> </span>of</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0.35pt 177.8pt 0.0001pt 7.35pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">a much wider collapse). The<span style="letter-spacing: -0.05pt;"> </span>economic structures collapsed when the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.05pt;"> </span>dot-com bubble<span style="letter-spacing: 1.7pt;"> </span>burst,<span style="letter-spacing: 1.8pt;"> </span>the recession<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>hit, jobs<span style="letter-spacing: 1.5pt;"> </span>were lost, and<span style="letter-spacing: 1.95pt;"> </span>the Enron/Dot-Com scandal occurred. That has even hit Martha Stewart. Economic structures clearly showed their vulnerability. The political collapse came with the elections<span style="letter-spacing: 1.6pt;"> </span>of 2000 and was confirmed<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>with the pull-out from global treaties, and the unilateral invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Political structures, including<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>the UN, just don't seem to work very<span style="letter-spacing: 1.95pt;"> </span>well. And the cultural </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(1, 1, 1);">- </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">perhaps<span style="letter-spacing: 1.75pt;"> </span>the RCC disclosure of<span style="letter-spacing: 1.85pt;"> </span>pedophilia in the priesthood can symbolize that, but you can also find<span style="letter-spacing: 1.95pt;"> </span>collapse in even<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>the Superbowl's<span style="letter-spacing: 1.95pt;"> </span>halftime show!</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 7.9pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 11.35pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">And<span style="letter-spacing: 0.85pt;"> </span>baseball,<span style="letter-spacing: 0.95pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: 0.25pt;"> </span>national<span style="letter-spacing: 0.75pt;"> </span>sport,<span style="letter-spacing: 0.3pt;"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing: 0.35pt;"> </span>being<span style="letter-spacing: 0.8pt;"> </span>portrayed<span style="letter-spacing: 1pt;"> </span>as<span style="letter-spacing: -0.3pt;"> </span>fraught<span style="letter-spacing: 1pt;"> </span><span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;">with</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0.25pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 7.6pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">drug-enhanced<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>players. Cultural structures, even the "pop" ones, just don't seem to hold values any more. What's happening is not that the structures collapse literally, but rather that their trustworthiness has been</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0.2pt 199.85pt 0.0001pt 7.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.2pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">radically called into question. They're still around, but not providing us any stability or security.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 10.25pt 0cm 0.0001pt 7.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 12.6pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">Our<span style="letter-spacing: 0.05pt;"> </span>Internal<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span>Crisis<span style="letter-spacing: 0.1pt;"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing: 0.45pt;"> </span>all<span style="letter-spacing: 0.3pt;"> </span>this<span style="letter-spacing: -0.05pt;"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;"> </span>security.<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span>All<span style="letter-spacing: 0.45pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.35pt;"> </span>structures<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span><span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;">that</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0.4pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 7.85pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: 0.2pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">provided a measure of stability and predictability<span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;"> </span>are<span style="letter-spacing: -0.5pt;"> </span>coming un-glued. We don't have anything reliable to count on as a shield against chaos. So we hawk security, as though a new cabinet post or new airport inspections<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>could protect us from - what?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 10.95pt 0cm 0.0001pt 8.4pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">And<span style="letter-spacing: 0.3pt;"> </span>this<span style="letter-spacing: 0.05pt;"> </span>raises<span style="letter-spacing: 0.25pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.35pt;"> </span>Existential<span style="letter-spacing: 0.7pt;"> </span>Question<span style="letter-spacing: 0.75pt;"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing: 0.45pt;"> </span>"What<span style="letter-spacing: 0.15pt;"> </span>can<span style="letter-spacing: 0.05pt;"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing: -0.05pt;"> </span><span style="letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">trust?"</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 12.9pt 191.45pt 0.0001pt 8.35pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 14.26px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">We<span style="letter-spacing: -0.3pt;"> </span>escape that question through </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(1, 1, 1);">belligerence. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">I'm<span style="letter-spacing: -0.2pt;"> </span>quite amazed at the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.25pt;"> </span>level of anger that has come into the political scene in the USA. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(1, 1, 1);">But </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">you<span style="letter-spacing: 1.55pt;"> </span>see it</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 13.64px; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><br clear="all" style="break-before: page;"></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;"></span><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 4.55pt 169.2pt 0.0001pt 5.9pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: 0.55pt; line-height: 14.566667px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">in other<span style="letter-spacing: 0.9pt;"> </span>realms<span style="letter-spacing: 1.15pt;"> </span>as<span style="letter-spacing: 0.85pt;"> </span>well<span style="letter-spacing: 0.9pt;"> </span>-<span style="letter-spacing: 0.85pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: 0.85pt;"> </span>hatred<span style="letter-spacing: 1.55pt;"> </span>thinly<span style="letter-spacing: 1.25pt;"> </span>disguised<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>as religious fundamentalism and the malevolence of virus-creators and spam mongers. This doesn't even mention the explicitly belligerent views of the "hawks" in the international<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>scene who are not simply limited to the present administration.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.75pt 199.85pt 0.0001pt 6pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: 0.15pt; line-height: 14.566667px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">While these illustrations are heavily Western, I believe you can find the same dynamics operating elsewhere. Take the Palestinians, for example. Obviously their economy has<span style="letter-spacing: -0.1pt;"> </span>collapsed. Their political structure, as soon as it's set up, is taken apart again, either because of internal struggles</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0cm 199.85pt 0.0001pt 6.15pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">or by the Israelis. Their culture seems devoid of significating power. So with the crisis of security and no answer to "What can I trust?" there is a turn to suicide bombings. Which, of course, work only to exaggerate the conditions<span style="letter-spacing: 1.75pt;"> </span>that caused<span style="letter-spacing: 1.75pt;"> </span>them in the first<span style="letter-spacing: 1.3pt;"> </span>place. I'd<span style="letter-spacing: 1.05pt;"> </span>be willing<span style="letter-spacing: 1.4pt;"> </span>to content that terrorism is a manifestation<span style="letter-spacing: 1.9pt;"> </span>of this spirit mood in its escape mode.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6.45pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; line-height: 12.65pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">You<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span>can<span style="letter-spacing: 0.65pt;"> </span>probably<span style="letter-spacing: 0.8pt;"> </span>find<span style="letter-spacing: 0.6pt;"> </span>these<span style="letter-spacing: 0.05pt;"> </span>dynamics<span style="letter-spacing: 0.75pt;"> </span>at<span style="letter-spacing: 0.25pt;"> </span>work<span style="letter-spacing: 0.25pt;"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing: 0.05pt;"> </span>cultures<span style="letter-spacing: 0.9pt;"> </span>throughout<span style="letter-spacing: 1.4pt;"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing: 0.25pt;"> </span><span style="letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">world.</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.4pt 195.3pt 0.0001pt 6.45pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.1pt; line-height: 13.493333px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">What would it mean to trust that which takes out of being all those structures that provide some measure of security against the<span style="letter-spacing: -0.15pt;"> </span>lurking chaos in which<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>we live? That's the question<span style="letter-spacing: 2pt;"> </span>of God.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.85pt 177.8pt 0.0001pt 7pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.3pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">Your additions, corrections, suggestions and recommendations would be most welcome<span style="letter-spacing: 1.45pt;"> </span>as we try<span style="letter-spacing: 1.8pt;"> </span>to keep<span style="letter-spacing: 1.3pt;"> </span>tabs on<span style="letter-spacing: 1.25pt;"> </span>what is going<span style="letter-spacing: 1.25pt;"> </span>on in the world<span style="letter-spacing: 1.35pt;"> </span>these days.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.85pt 177.8pt 0.0001pt 7pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.3pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);"><br></span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.85pt 177.8pt 0.0001pt 7pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.3pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">Take care,</span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.85pt 177.8pt 0.0001pt 7pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.3pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);">Jo</span></p><p class="MsoBodyText" style="margin: 11.85pt 177.8pt 0.0001pt 7pt; font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: -0.3pt; line-height: 13.8px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(17, 17, 17);"><br></span></p><div>
<div>Jo Nelson</div><div>jo.r.nelson@gmail.com</div><div><br></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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