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<DIV>New question: What is Too Much Information?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jann</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 7/31/2012 5:22:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
stevehar11201@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>I got a
1 to 1 note from Joyce asking what's up with this Wiegel &<BR>Harrington
exchange about questions.<BR><BR>I'm guessing she's worried there is some kind
of animus in our<BR>back-and-forth -or she thinks one or the other of us are
in deep weeds<BR>of confusion.<BR><BR>Just to be clear: I have no animus or
upset going what so ever.<BR>I actually like Wiegel's questions.<BR>I'm
thinking he is trying to open up some more powerful more
lively<BR>discorse in this dialogue.<BR><BR>Personally I like the idea
of<BR>-sharper questions that move texting forward<BR>-sharper questions that
cause interesting answers<BR>-koans, and cross-word puzzles that make you do
an Arsinio Hall<BR>reaction like..."Makes you go hmmm?"<BR><BR>I enjoy obscure
references to our common and uncommon literature.<BR>Surely Wiegels carp quote
[is he carping]? is out of the book the Ronin.<BR>So is my retort, by the way:
"neither does the severed branch leave the tree"<BR>Didn't read the Ronin?
Worth it and cheep on Amazon. I think Jack<BR>Gilles may have a list of the
sections that used to be read as a bed<BR>time story in LENS
seminars.<BR><BR>I think Wiegel is on to something by inviting edgy questions
and a<BR>more focused dialogue - especially in a year celebrating 50 years
of<BR>past and envisioning 50 years of ICA future.<BR><BR>By comparison, in
the Soto Zen community there is a tradition called<BR>"Dokusan" where there is
a public, pregnant exchange of views between<BR>the teacher &
student about what is real and what is important. It<BR>often takes the form
of Q & A but at a deeper more existential<BR>levels...almost anything goes
that engages what is ready-to-hand in<BR>the exchange.<BR><BR>Shunryu
Suzukii's famous quote comes from this tradition: "In<BR>Beginner's Mind there
are many possibilities, In Expert's Mind there<BR>are few. It implies that
fresh questions and real inquiry create fresh<BR>answers; which in turn loose
their freshness.<BR><BR>Two short personal examples of teacher-student
encounters<BR><BR>Some questions become life-long inquiries. For example one
time Kaye<BR>Hayes asked: "Steve, what is one thing that grounds you in
history? I<BR>said immediately: Satyagraha: Gandhi's term for something like
firm<BR>grasping for the truth." I'm stilly carrying around that question.
It<BR>is still alive for me.<BR><BR>Another time the Sarpanch of Maliwada
asked me a question when Chan<BR>and I came to visit and to see what Maliwada
was -long after the<BR>project was over. He offered me tea and I refused to
drink it. He<BR>asked: "Steve, you came all this way and I see you refuse to
drink my<BR>tea, why is this? I knew the answer immediately but couldn't say
so I<BR>bowed Namaste fashion in silence. What I couldn't say but
saw<BR>immediately that I was afraid to drink the tea boiled in water
for<BR>fear of becoming ill. It was a foolish fear of course, but the
deeper<BR>point, I was just just being a tourist in my own life at that
moment,<BR>just passing through, full of thinking but very little being,
very<BR>little doing, not much integrity -the kind of integrity that
JWM<BR>called Maliwada Integrity where what you say and what you do
actually<BR>fits together, you know you are not a tourist in your own life,
just<BR>passing through on a tour.<BR><BR>So in a Soto Community
"Dokusan" type encounter, anyone can claim<BR>either the role: student or
teacher. Often the student asks the<BR>teacher a question or offers an
assertion, the teacher responds. Or it<BR>is the other way around the teacher
asks, the student self-selects and<BR>engages the question. there is an 800
year tradition of recording<BR>these encounters with respect poetry,
commentary and picking up the<BR>question again and again to squeeze new
wisdom out of it.<BR><BR>In the Q & A encounter people listen for the
wisdom point not for<BR>animus, not for logic either. The Q &
A proceeds until either the<BR>student or the teacher bows and steps back
realizing the last point is<BR>the wisdom point and acknowledging it. The
other listeners often "get<BR>it" too and write it down.<BR><BR>There really
is no "make wrong" no shame-making or cynicism, no<BR>animus, no snarky
drive-bys.<BR><BR>In the Q & A , it is a discourse to find out what's so
and make what<BR>is actually so clear to everyone present: the student, the
teacher and<BR>the audience.<BR><BR>It is said to be how "Stones polishing
each other" and learn to speak<BR>clearly & wholehearted. "Stones" also do
real work besides real<BR>discourse.<BR><BR>In non-poetic lingo some kinds of
discourse are performative not just<BR>"words. See: "speech acts":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._L._Austin<BR><BR>What IS the "proper" form of
dialogue in the dialogue?<BR><BR>What possibilities do you notice?<BR><BR>More
like this:<BR>-acknowledgement of the life and energy of colleagues?
Yes<BR>-announcements? yes<BR>-personal epiphanies and realizations?
yes<BR>-ICA hopes and dreams? yes<BR><BR>Less like this [I say]<BR>-flights of
wistful nostalgia for the past? Boring<BR>-ORID in a texting sequence? Meh. In
text ORID is horrid. Gets<BR>processed in my in box not my heart<BR>-aimless
chit-chat? Drivel. It drives people away like Wayne Elsworth<BR>-people
opining more layers of self-referencing abstractions? Thank<BR>you Dr.
Descartes, who thinks thinking comes 1st before being and<BR>doing which might
come later [or not]<BR><BR>Not every dialogue needs whole-hearted
intentionality, of course.<BR><BR>Returning to Joyce's question: what's up
with you guys in the dialogue?<BR>It is a good question.<BR><BR>My answer is
polishing stones, learning to ask and answer wholehearted<BR>questions with
wholehearted answers. I think this is what Wiegel might<BR>be up to. Anyway it
is what I'm up for.<BR><BR>Joyce's Q is like Brian Stanfield's story from
Courage to Lead from<BR>his own acknowledged teacher Joe Pierce who had
something to say at<BR>the Lusaka airport.<BR><BR>The customs official asked:
Have anything to declare Mr. Pierce.<BR>Mr Pierce answered the question
full-out and whole-hearted.<BR>The official stepped back.<BR>Stanfield doesn't
say if the customs official bowed - or not.<BR><BR>Do you have anything to
declare Mr. Wiegel?<BR>[heh, heh,
heh]<BR><BR>Steve<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>Steve
Harrington<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Dialogue
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list<BR>Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net<BR>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>