<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Amen to the serving comment</div><div>Only reason for the church</div><div>Which I love</div><div>Priscilla Wilson<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Jul 18, 2012, at 5:50 PM, "<a href="mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my">jlepps@pc.jaring.my</a>" <<a href="mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my">jlepps@pc.jaring.my</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
A word of perspective:<br><br>
"The church's function is to serve humanity -- not to get people to
join it. And so it is with any other religion. God will take care of all
the joining if you go about your task of serving humanity."
JWM, "Social Demonstration: Mass Replication", <u>Bending
History 2</u>, p. 270.<br><br>
Elsewhere I recall a statement about anytime you find yourself defending
God or Christ (or the Church?) you can be sure that it's not God or
Christ (or the Church) that you are defending.<br><br>
So maybe what this is about is finding the most effective way to serve
humanity.<br><br>
John Epps<br><br>
At 05:09 AM 7/18/2012, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">Len,<br>
<br>
This column by Douthat is the one to which Diana Butler Bass replied,
that I referenced. If you want to see the Bass response just Google
or Yahoo "Can Christianity Be Saved." She basically says
what you're saying.<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in
the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<br>
-Martin Buber (adapted)<br>
<font size="2"><b>From:</b> Len Hockley <<a href="mailto:lenh@efn.org">lenh@efn.org</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Colleague Dialogue <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:59 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] Can Christianity Be Saved? Can Religion Be
Saved?<br>
</font><br>
The article is at <br>
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw" eudora="autourl">
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=1&hpw</a>
<br><br>
Interesting article. It assumes health of the church can be
measured by numbers, but concludes correctly that we need to better
define what it means to be a Christian. He says:<br><br>
<font size="2"><i>Today, by contrast, the leaders of the Episcopal Church
and similar bodies often don’t seem to be offering anything you can’t
already get from a purely secular liberalism. Which suggests that perhaps
they should pause, amid their frantic renovations, and consider not just
what they would change about historic Christianity, but what they would
defend and offer uncompromisingly to the world. <br>
</i></font><br>
I may be wrong, but it may be that there is little difference between a
social liberal and a Christian except what one calls ones self.
<br><br>
It all boils down to what the defining attribute is for
Christianity. And for this I would put forth Robin R. Meyers
definition:<font face="Bookman Old Style, Bookman" size="2"><br><br>
<i>The ultimate defining characteristic of Christianity is <b>the
incarnation</b>, the mystery of God's presence in a person. The Word
became flesh, as John put it (1:14), and
</i></font><i><font face="Garamond">lived
</font><font face="Bookman Old Style, Bookman" size="2">among us. The
incarnation gives the faith its form and content, bringing God
"nearer to us than our jugular vein," to quote the Qur'an
(50:16).<br>
</font></i><div align="right"><i><font size="1">Saving Jesus from the
Church</font></i><br>
</div>
<br>
In this definition, the mantra <i>"What would Jesus do?"</i>
takes on basic importance. It is a test of an individual and does
not require or recognize any organizational membership. The
organizational membership only points to a set of symbols and rites that
a group uses to remind them of the wisdom that Jesus brought as the
incarnation of the Mystery, God. <br><br>
The gift of the church is the keeper of the history and the gathering of
the faithful.<br><br>
Len<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
On 7/16/2012 2:44 PM, R Williams wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite" class="cite" cite="">Last week <i>New York Times</i>
columnist Ross Douthat wrote an article asking "Can Liberal
Christianity Be Saved?" in which he asserted that manifestations of
liberal Christianity, like the Episcopal Church, are facing imminent
death.<br>
<br>
Diana Butler Ross, author of the recent book <i>Christianity After
Religion, </i>responded to Douthat this week in the HuffPost, suggesting
that conservative churches as well as liberal ones are declining.
She broadens the question to, "Can Christianity Be
Saved?" She ultimately asks, can liberal churches save
Christianity? She refers to isolated instances of local churches
that are experiencing renewal, but suggests "the denominational
structures have yet to adjust their institutions to the recovery of
practical wisdom that is remaking local congregations."<br>
<br>
You may access Bass's article at
<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_b_1674807.h" eudora="autourl">
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-butler-bass/can-christianity-be-saved-1_b_1674807.h</a>
<br>
<br>
The question could perhaps be taken to yet another level by asking,
"Can religion be saved?" Or perhaps even more relevant, using
our language and concerns from the 60s and 70s, is the question,
"Can movemental Christianity survive and thrive without the
institutional church?"<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in
the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<br>
-Martin Buber (adapted)<br><br>
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