<html>
<body>
Just for fun, George, I remember that story about the bear and the rat.
The person clinging to the rope the rat was gnawing saw "a wild
strawberry growing on the side of the well, reached over, picked it and
ate it. It was so sweet."<br><br>
John<br><br>
At 08:43 PM 7/7/2012, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=2>Thanks, George and
John, earlier. I believe Earth is the primary referent for whatever
question is posed.<br>
Ellie Stock<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: George Holcombe <geowanda@earthlink.net><br>
To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net><br>
Sent: Sat, Jul 7, 2012 6:07 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION THESE
DAYS?<br><br>
Sometimes being realistic is more than skeptical. Jim's mention of
climate change for me certainly is a game changer regarding the right
question. Climate scientist are not that rosy about the future, and
with the greatest polluters ignoring the data it does not hold much
promise. Jean Watts' husband, Bob, could probably give us more data
here. The increase in heat, shifting seasons, intensity of storms,
rising seas and all the things our media does not cover, e.g. South Sea
Islanders seeking to migrate to New Zealand and Australia because they
are losing ground month by month, even here in our garden we have insects
that were confined to the South of us now showing up. The intensity
of Monsoon seasons which is destroying top soil among other things, that
our colleague, Rupert Barnes, used to trace around the world in the 80's
and 90's, the expanding population and the shortage of water, the list
goes on and on. I understand that Climatologists are concerned
about the CO2 in sea waters, where it is and what it's doing, and rising
acidity. <br><br>
I remember we had an illustration about the guy being chased by the bear
and falling into the well clinging to a rope that a rat is gnawing
away. With Theology and Philosophy being outflanked by Science
disciplines, I begin to wonder if the "meaning of life" issues
we enjoy tossing around is any longer at the heart of the issue.
Are we left with preparing for future extinction, whatever that looks
like, or attempting to rectify the damages we've done to mother earth in
hopes she changes her mind. Do we really have a wider range of
options or questions?<br><br>
George Holcombe<br>
14900 Yellowleaf Tr.<br>
Austin, TX 78728<br>
Mobile 512/252-2756<br>
<a href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">geowanda@earthlink.net</a><br><br>
Hope appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do
with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alienit just
appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the world could you
hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify any
hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
On Jul 7, 2012, at 12:17 PM, R Williams wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Jim and Jim,<br>
<br>
I find myself wanting to be realistic without being skeptical and
thinking that the situation is hopeless. Jim W., you mention Walter
Brueggemann's book <i>The Prophetic Imagination.</i> Brueggemann
suggests, as I understand what he is saying, that the task of the ancient
prophets was to imagine a future that was an alternative to the dominant
cultural reality of the time, and to narrate that alternative in such a
way that the people would participate in its emergence. By
"imagination" he meant the ability to discern what YHWH was
bringing into being.<br>
<br>
In the sequel, called <i>The Practice of Prophetic Imagination</i>,
Brueggemann says the following:<br>
<br>
<i>Can YHWH create, yet again, a new history for Israel, after the old
history has come to a dismal end? Here we are at the deepest
theological question of biblical faith--is the God of faith contained
within and informed by what the world knows to be possible? Or is
it within the capacity of God to create a newness that defies the
categories of the "possible" that are commonly and reasonably
accepted in the world?<br>
</i> <br>
He then refers Karl Barth's second volume of <i>Church Dogmatics.<br>
</i> <br>
<i>Karl Barth...faces the issue of what is "real" and what is
"possible..." Barth's insistence that the issue
of "possibility" must not claim to precede the question
of "reality'" is crucial. And because God is free, much
is possible with God that would not otherwise be possible.<br>
</i> <br>
Brueggemann continues:<br>
<br>
<i>It is useful to recognize, in our own context, that when faith is
contained within modern rationality, there is a rejection of the God who
can "do the impossible." The present casting of that
rejection concerns "an interventionist God" who violates our
notion of the possible... The question left...is a question about
the freedom of God that we seek to ponder without any recourse to crude
supernaturalism.<br>
</i> <br>
By "crude supernaturalism" Brueggemann is pointing to something
like uttering magical prayers for a person to be cured of an illness, or
a town to be saved from violent weather, etc. with the expectation that
God will intervene in a spontaneous, spasmodic instant to the immediate
situation and prayers will be answered. He does not, however,
dismiss the idea that God is an interventionist. What he does
suggest is that, rather than spontaneous, God is an active player in
human history and is continuously intervening in every "now,"
in the midst of which all things are always being made new. He
concludes:<br>
<br>
<i>In each new articulation, Israel must ask again in wonderment if God,
in God's freedom, can push beyond ordinary "possibility" to the
"impossible..." The tradition of faith continues to be
dazzled by specific memories, in narrative form, of instances in which
the "impossibility of God" has overridden the
"possibility" of human wisdom...that exhibit God's faithful
power beyond our expectation or explanation.<br>
</i> <br>
Thus the role of the prophet is to discern the "possible
impossibility" (my words) that is emerging in the midst of the death
of the old, "narrate" it in a compelling fashion, and
participate in "bring(ing) it to reality as it desires."
(Martin Buber's phrase.) So to bring this back to where we started,
perhaps <u>the</u> question in all of this, and perhaps a timeless one at
that, is "What is the newness that is seeking to emerge in our time
and, what story shall we tell about it, and what is required of us to
participate in having it emerge?"<br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in
the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<br>
-Martin Buber (adapted)<br>
<b>From:</b> James Wiegel
<<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> Colleague Dialogue
<<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">
dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 6, 2012 8:09 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION
THESE DAYS?<br>
Wow. Thanks, Jim. Someone on this list recommended Prophetic
Imagination by Walter Bruggemann, and I found it as an ebook and
downloaded and read it. He is very much in line with your
perspective, and points to the experience of the prophets and their role
and function as what we need. Since reading it, I have been saying
to myself, we are moving into a prophetic moment.<br><br>
Jim Wiegel<br><br>
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it is hard to
verify their authenticity." Abraham Lincoln<br><br>
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401<br>
+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel<br>
<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/" eudora="autourl">
www.partnersinparticipation.com</a><br><br>
Upcoming public course opportunities:<br>
ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012<br>
ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012<br>
The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012<br>
Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation
program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16,
2012 <br>
See short video
<a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55">
http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55</a> and website for
further details.<br><br>
--- On <b>Fri, 7/6/12, Jim Baumbach
<i><<a href="mailto:wtw0bl@new.rr.com">wtw0bl@new.rr.com</a>></i>
</b> wrote:<br>
</font>
<dl><br>
<dd>From: Jim Baumbach
<<a href="mailto:wtw0bl@new.rr.com">wtw0bl@new.rr.com</a>><br>
<dd>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION
THESE DAYS?<br>
<dd>To: "Colleague Dialogue"
<<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">
dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>><br>
<dd>Date: Friday, July 6, 2012, 4:55 PM<br><br>
<dd>Certainly Boulding was aware of some of the ominous crises and saw
within them a potential for extinction of our human species. But
several other crises are also pending including global warming
(environmental change), unending wars, physical and chemical pollution,
droughts and starvation, declining water sources, etc. My question
was not intended to be supercilious but as a thought regarding how
fragile our own current existence is. Measured in a geologic time
frame, the total presence of human life is so minuscule as to be in all
probability essentially zero. Yet within that time frame, human
beings have been able to so threaten their own existence that one can
hardly imagine any other life form as suicidal. Despite all of the
dire scientific projections I, for one, am unable to stop doing exactly
what I, and many like me, have been doing for decades and
centuries--consuming the Earth's resources in unsustainable
amounts. And now the populations of China and India are also
anticipating doing what I am doing! I don't see anything changing so
profoundly that we will reverse our present course. There are, of
course, many band aid-type remedies such as alternative energy sources
but these only prolong this process. Is it possible to change human
nature to such an extent that we, in Biblical tradition when Jonah
proclaimed disaster to Nineveh: "...Then tidings reached the king of
Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, and covered
himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he made proclamation and
published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his
nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; let
them not feed, or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with
sackcloth, and let them cry mightily to God; yea, let every one turn from
his evil way and from the violence which is in his hands." (Jonah
3:3-8 RSV), actually change our habits? Without this dramatic
turn-around possibly our question will be: "How do we prepare
all human life to face the inevitable extinction of our species?"
Jim Baumbach <br>
<dd>On 7/6/2012 3:56 PM, James Wiegel wrote: <br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>I was just reminded of an old, old, friend, Kenneth Boulding, and a
chapter from his book, The Meaning of the Twentieth Century -- The Great
Transition, published in 1964. He described this "great
transition" thusly: <br>
<dd>The Great Transition (1964)<br>
</b>
<dd>The twentieth century might be described as the crucial central
period in the third great transition in the state of mankind. The first
great transition was from the paleolithic to the neolithic about ten
thousand years ago, which was characterized by the invention of
agriculture, the domestication of animals, and the development of a
settled life in villages. The second great transition, sometimes called
the urban revolution, about five thousand years ago, was characterized by
the development of political power and the centralization of the food
surplus from agriculture in cities. This is the transition from neolithic
agriculture to civilizations. What is underway now is a third great
transition, in which civilization is passing away and a new order of
society altogether, which I have sometimes called post-civilized but
which perhaps deserves the name of the Developed Society, is coming into
being. The twentieth century is the crucial midstage of this transition
which will determine very largely whether it will be made successful or
not. <br><br>
<dd>HERE ARE SOME PARAGRAPHS FROM THE FINAL CHAPTER. I FOUND THEM
ON THE GOLDEN PATHWAYS: <br><br>
<br>
<dd>The fact of the great transition is not in dispute. Almost anyone in
middle life today has simply to look back to his own childhood, or still
more to the days of his grandparents, to realize that we are living in a
world in which there is an enormous rate of change. If anyone in an
advanced society today were to suddenly thrust back into the world of
only a hundred years ago, he would feel utterly alien and strange. A
considerable part of his vocabulary would be meaningless to the people
around him. He would find it hard to adapt to the inconveniences and to
the restricted life which would have to lead. He would feel indeed in an
alien society.<br><br>
<dd>....................................................<br>
<dd>I, therefore, have no hesitation in recommending the attitude toward
the great transition which I have described as critical acceptance. There
may be times when we wish nostalgically that it had never started, for
then at least the danger that the evolutionary experiment in this part of
the universe would be terminated would be more remote. Now that the
transition is under way, however, there is no going back on it. We must
learn to use its enormous potential for good rather than for evil, and we
must learn to diminish and eventually eliminate the dangers which are
inherent in it. If I had to sum up the situation in a sentence I would
say that the situation has arisen because of the development of certain
methods of reality testing applied to our images of nature. If we are to
ride out the transition successfully we must apply these or similar
methods for reality testing to our images of man and his society.<br>
<dd>There is in the world today an "invisible college" of
people in many different countries and many different cultures, who have
this vision of the nature of the transition through which we are passing
and who are determined to devote their lives to contributing toward its
successful fulfillment. Membership in this college is consistent with
many different philosophical, religious, and political positions. It is a
college without a founder and without a president, without buildings and
without organization. Its founding members might have included a Jesuit
like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a humanist like Aldous Huxley, a writer
of science fiction like H. G. Wells, and it might even have given
honorary degrees to Adam Smith, Karl Marx, Pope John XXIII, and even
Khrushchev and John F. Kennedy. Its living representatives are still a
pretty small group of people. I think, however, that it is they who hold
the future of the world in their hands or at least in their minds.<br>
<dd>For this invisible college I am an unashamed propagandist and I
confess without a blush that this book is a tract. Our precious little
planet, this blue green cradle of life with its rosy mantle, is in one of
the most critical stages of its whole existence. It is in a position of
immense danger and immense potentiality. There are no doubt many
experiments in evolution going on in different parts of this big
universe. But this happens to be my planet and I am very much attached to
it, and I am desperately anxious that this particular experiment should
be a success. If this be ethnocentrism, then let me be ethnocentric! I am
pretty sure, however, that it will not be a success unless something is
done. There is danger both of the bang of nuclear detonation and of the
whimper of exhausted overpopulation, and either would mean an end of the
evolutionary process in these parts. If man were merely capable of
destroying himself, one could perhaps bear the thought. One could at
least console oneself with the thought of elementary justice, that if man
does destroy himself it is his own silly fault. He is captain, however,
of a frai1 and delicate vessel, and in the course of destroying himself
he might easily destroy the vessel that is, the planet which carries
him, with its immense wealth and variety of evolutionary freight and
evolutionary potential. This makes the dangers of the transition doubly
intolerable, and demands a desperate effort to remove them.<br><br>
<br>
<dd>Jim Wiegel<br><br>
<dd>"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it is hard to
verify their authenticity." Abraham Lincoln<br><br>
<dd>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401<br>
<dd>+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel<br>
<dd><a href="??">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>
<a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/</a><br><br>
<dd>Upcoming public course opportunities:<br>
<dd>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012<br>
<dd>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012<br>
<dd>The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012<br>
<dd>Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation
program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16,
2012 <br>
<dd>See short video
<a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55">
http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55</a> and website for
further details.<br><br>
<dd>--- On Fri, 7/6/12, R Williams
<a href="??"><rcwmbw@yahoo.com></a></i></b> wrote:<br>
<dl><br>
<dd>From: R Williams <a href="??"><rcwmbw@yahoo.com></a><br>
<dd>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Oe List ...] WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION
THESE DAYS?<br>
<dd>To: "Order Ecumenical Community"
<a href="??"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>, "Colleague
Dialogue"
<a href="??"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a><br>
<dd>Date: Friday, July 6, 2012, 11:30 AM<br><br>
<dd>Jim,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>By "peace" I meant something more than the absence of
war. I suppose I meant something like "with civility,"
" with mutual respect," "acknowledging the dignity and
worth of all." This may be idealistic but without it I am
skeptical that we can continue. The by-product of this kind of
peace is sustainability, so my statement may have been a bit
redundant.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>I agree with Wayne up to a point. I believe there is really one
moral issue at a time, but there must be many ways to describe it
and thus to articulate the question. With the way issues are
so inter-related, it's difficult to talk about one without eventually
getting into most of the others, and probably even more difficult
to finally boil it down to "the" underlying root/moral issue of
the time. I would have to say that the way we articulated it in the
70's as the disparity between the 85/15, or today maybe the 99/1, isn't
that far off base for today as well.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>One thing I do feel fairly certain about. Whereas in RS-1 days
we asked, "Who am I?" "What do I?" and "How be
I?"--today I would insist that the question, whatever it is, is not
an "I" question, but rather a "we" question.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Randy<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being
in the world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires." -Martin Buber (adapted) <br>
<dd>From:</b> James Wiegel
<a href="??"><jfwiegel@yahoo.com></a><br>
<dd>To:</b> Colleague Dialogue
<a href="??"><dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net></a>; Order Ecumenical
Community <a href="??"><oe@lists.wedgeblade.net></a> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Friday, July 6, 2012 12:33 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> [Oe List ...] WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION THESE
DAYS?<br>
<dd>WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION THESE DAYS? Over coffee, this morning, i
recopied the emails from this thread and tried to narrow down to just the
questions that were posed. I think i missed an email that Lee Early was
responding to in his message. A couple of reflections: Randy, in
yours, i was struggling with the phrase "in peace", wondering,
a bit like the word "church" or "religious" what that
might point to that would seem true to life vs. sort of an ideal future.
Wayne, your response that there may not be "a" question, but
many and we each have to figure out our own for ourselves got me to
reflecting on the evident complicatedness of things in a systemic or
interconnected world. My auto mechanic was explaining to me how to
simply fix the health care system in the US, and your comment came up for
me, and i said that is a good idea, but i think we are looking too often
for simple silver bullet solutions when thngs are actually much more
complicated. And that made sense to both of us and moved the
conversation on. Jim Baumbach's question put me back on my heels .
"How do I get you to change your mind and do what I think is
right?" then, when in linking it with Bill Parker's notion
that none of this is new, and why haven't we all woken up? Got me
thinking, at least on the liberal or progressive side, whether the new
religion arising is the religion of human rights . . . Progressives, at
least, seem to hold these as sacred and as a moral obligation to be
enforced. I could go on, but my eggs are getting cold, and the slice of
cantelope from Judy's garden is calling. THE GIST AS I SEE IT Mary
Hampton: Enough, all ready, its too good to miss and I am not ready
to edit. Good stuff, folks! Ken Gilgren: why am I here? What
am I doing? How am I being? What quickens the current action of my
soul? what was the question again? Wayne Nelson: What are the
pivotal moral issues of our moment? I think there are likely to be
several. Of course there are many, many but there are probably some major
ones. To reduce it to a single one makes it too abstract and denies
the obvious complexity. We all have to name 'the moral issue of our
time.' There's not likely to be one for everyone. It's a job we all
have to do. Bill Parker: What are the warning signs of the
destruction and endangerment of the entire human community? Then
ask, what is the underlying question to be addressed and how it can be
addressed. Why are people not being awakened to the clear, obvious
truth of our crisis? Secondly, what methods must we develop or employ to
radically reveal this all encompassing truth? John Cock: My take:
If it does not have something like "on behalf of a transformed Earth
community" in the statement, it is the WRONG right question,
moral issue, or vocation. Lee Early: "Who is Tiger
Woods?", What is his mission? Can we re-answer the second
question? Mission, social pioneer, church, college, league, crimson
line and movement? The answer to the question of mission will carry
the first of who. (At least here in the West.) Sometimes the
question of mission changes. Sometimes by chance and sometimes on
purpose. What is our mission TODAY? Randy Williams: In
reflecting on the dialogue around what is "the question," I
realized we really were assuming two questions. How may
"we" (all species) live together on this planet in peace,
in a way that secures life for future generations? What is the new
face, form and mission of the "movement" (the religious, the
invisible college, the church with a little"c," ) and what
stories, style and symbols will sustain it? Jan Sanders: What are
the key images of the future of evolution? Steve Harrington: You
had to say it, eh? What does it look like to be the Sensitive &
Responsive. To what concerns? where? Karen Bueno: "How do we
motivate the sensitive and reponsive ones who understand that the
survival of the people of the earth and the earth itself depends on our
working together to make that survival possible?" I like the
idea of striving for a T-shirt phrase, like "Be one of those who
dare to live the future now.", as someone suggested. David
Walters: in the midst of a malaise of helplessness and an
established / controlling economic and political elite, what can we do to
support and help to form the emerging groups and movements (both the Tea
Party and the Occupy movement) to be both effective and inclusive? Jack
Gilles: Given the stance that "History rides on the back of
the religious" that we embodied and lived..... "Who are the
'religious' today, where would you look to find them, what are the marks
that tell you so, and what might we share (and how) with them so that
they are empowered and connected?". The "we" in the
question should refer to "those of us who are scattered" and
who will take seriously the answers. Janice Ulangca: In this
50th year of EI/ICA, some of the questions to live with:
Considering what we were/are/might be, what is our calling? What
are we called to know/do/be? What are some of the important
partnerships the future needs? Missed the name: What was Neibhur's
line? (and how do you spell his name?) Something about the
sensitive and something ones. Nancy Lanphear: What is " MY
GREAT WORK (IS) WHERE MY OWN GREAT JOY INTERSECTS WITH EARTH'S GREAT
NEED" ....perhaps EARTH could be stretched to all my relations, the
universe, life .... Jan and Steve: Considering what we
were/are/might be, what is our calling? What are we called to
know/do/be? Jan: What are some of the important partnerships
the future needs? Jim Baumbach: "How do I get you to change
your mind and do what I think is right?" Karen Bueno:
"How are we to live together and preserve this planet for the
future?" Jim Wiegel <a href="??">Jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a> “One
cannot live in the afternoon of life according to the program of life’s
morning; for what was great in the morning will be of little importance
in the evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have
become a lie.” Carl Jung Partners in Participation Upcoming public
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Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012 The AZ Community of Practice meets the
1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012 Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the
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Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 See short video
<a href="http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55">
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