<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Bill,</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Christianity was a movement for about 300 years before it became institutionalized, so I would have to say that in most cases movements give birth to institutions, not the other way around. True, many of us came to the spirit movement from the local church, but for me at least, it was because the movement seemed a legitimate alternative to what wasn't working in the institution. I agree with George about the value of the symbolic life, the wisdom literature and the historic traditions, but what I see going on in within the institution of the church today is what we called "institutionalism" in the RS-1 church lecture. The church abdicates its mission of serving the world and decides to make building and
preserving the institution its priority, and that's a perversion. Current examples of that for me--the UMC and the decisions of the General Conference regarding LGBT inclusiveness, and the Catholic Church with (1) the law suit filed by the Catholic bishops in the U.S. against the government regarding the health care law and contraception, and (2) the harassment of nuns in this country by the Vatican. I know there are obvious exceptions to what I am saying, but I fear my examples are indicative of the dominant trend.</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Whether a movement or an institution, religious or secular, its purpose must be to serve something greater than itself. If it can appease the powers that be, keep its constituents happy and balance the budget while doing that, fine. But it's when those institutional chores
become more important than the mission to serve, that it becomes perverse. Even with corporations a lot of insightful business people are saying that the purpose of business is not to make a profit but to serve its stakeholders (not just its shareholders), and that profit is the way it keeps score. Like saying that breathing is necessary to sustain a human life but breathing is not the reason for that life to exist. Where the mission to serve gets lost or dumbed down, whether in the religious or secular movement or the religious or secular institution, the entity becomes at best irrelevant and at worst destructive.</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Randy</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span></span> </div><div></div><div> </div><div>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the world; not
to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it desires."<br>-Martin Buber (adapted)<br></div> <div style="font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="hr" contentEditable="false" readonly="true"></div> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Bill Parker <bparker175@cox.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Colleague Dialogue <dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:53 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a lifetime"<br> </font> </div> <wbr>
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial">George,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I think your statement about the institutional
church is an important insight that is easily overlooked in the midst of our
frustration with the church. We make a mistake when we expect the institutional
church to fulfill the criteria of the movemental church. That is not who or what
they are. They have powers to contend with, budgets to meet, programs to conduct
to keep their constituencies happy with the church as an institution. They are
stationary in scope, intent, and form plus they often appear to be shallow,
misguided and self serving. Yet, it is the source, the birthplace of the
movemental religious. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">When you think about it, it is like a lot of us
expect insurance companies to take responsibility for our healthcare system.
That is not their job. That is the job of the society who wants to make sure
people have access to healthcare. We can't expect that from a corporation, that
is not what a corporation is.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Anyway.....just thinking,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Thanks,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Bill</font> </div>
<blockquote style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="geowanda@earthlink.net" href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">George
Holcombe</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Colleague Dialogue</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:31
AM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dialogue] Hmm, the
Methodists weigh in,sounds like the "council of a lifetime"</div>
<div><br></div>With Joe being a Methodist and Slicker a Presbyterian, we can
look at ourselves as a movement that sprang from the institutional church, and
there are others, even now. I think Joe was right when he said that the
institutional church was dead some years ago. However, there is lots of
life within the movemental church dynamic, and that includes all the
religions, that springs from institutional religion. What's interesting
about the institutional expressions of religion is that they hold on to the
symbols and scriptures, the history, etc. even when they misinterpret and
misrepresent them.
<div><wbr>
<div><span style="font:/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span"><span style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="yiv1299105475Apple-style-span">
<div style="font:/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; word-wrap: break-word; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">George
Holcombe<wbr>14900 Yellowleaf Tr.<wbr>Austin, TX 78728<wbr>Mobile
512/252-2756<wbr><a href="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:geowanda@earthlink.net">geowanda@earthlink.net</a></div>
<div style="font:/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; word-wrap: break-word; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><br></div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;">Hope
appeareth, but it is not your Hope—you do not have anything to do
with it. It just appeareth. It comes as a stranger, as an alien—it
just appeareth! You do not even know why you hope. How in the
world could you hope when there is absolutely nothing to justify
any hope? ~Joseph W. Mathews<wbr><br></div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><br></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></span><br class="yiv1299105475Apple-interchange-newline"></div><wbr>
<div>
<div>On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:52 PM, R Williams wrote:</div><wbr>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div><span>In the midst of the turmoil the church is going through this is
one of the most hopeful pieces I've seen. The primary question for me
is, can a church that has been so embedded in institutional structures for
so long realistically be expected to reverse course and again become a
movemental presence?</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Randy </span></div>
<div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<wbr>-Martin Buber (adapted)<br></div>
<div style="font-family: tahoma, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial">
<div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="yiv1299105475hr"></div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> James Wiegel <<a href="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:jfwiegel@yahoo.com">jfwiegel@yahoo.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:oe@lists.wedgeblade.net">oe@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>;
Colleague Dialogue <<a href="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a>>
<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, June 11,
2012 9:42 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[Dialogue] Hmm, the Methodists weigh in, sounds like the "council of a
lifetime"<br></font></div>
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<td style="font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" vAlign="top">http://www.unitedmethodistreporter.com/2012/06/new-england-conference-delegation-no-common-identity-for-umc/<br><br>Jim
Wiegel<br><br>If you hear a voice within you say 'you cannot paint,'
then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced. Vincent Van
Gogh<br><br>401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401<br>+1
623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel<br>jfwiegel@yahoo.com <a href="http://www.partnersinparticipation.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.partnersinparticipation.com</a><br><br>Upcoming
public course opportunities:<br>ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12,
2012<br>ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012<br>The AZ Community of
Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012<br>Facilitation Mastery :
Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in
Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 <br>See short
video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for
further details.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 6/11/12, Timothy Wegner
<i><twegner@swbell.net></i></b> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;"><br>From:
Timothy Wegner <twegner@swbell.net><br>Subject: [Dialogue] <a href="http://wedgeblade.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">wedgeblade.net</a> is
back up.<br>To: "oe@lists.wedgeblade.net"
<oe@lists.wedgeblade.net>, "dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net"
<dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net><br>Date: Monday, June 11,
2012, 10:24 AM<br><br>
<div class="yiv1299105475plainMail">Wedgeblade.net has actually been up
since yesterday, but I just received a message from our host that
their backup restore is complete. All is good. In fact, all is good
even when the website is down! Tim ---------- Sent from
AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile
Email _______________________________________________ Dialogue
mailing list<a rel="nofollow">Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net</div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div> _______________________________________________ Dialogue
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