<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="Street"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="address"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="country-region"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="State"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="City"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="place"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Viner Hand ITC";
panose-1:3 7 5 2 3 5 2 2 2 3;}
@font-face
{font-family:Pristina;
panose-1:3 6 4 2 4 4 6 8 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I strongly affirm John’s comments as
well as whoever earlier said that Bohmian dialogue depends more on the
discipline of the participants. That has also been my experience. And I’ve
found Bohm’s model works well if you can continue a conversation with the
SAME participants over a series of dialogues, for instance, several gatherings
at a conference or several weekly evenings over a month or more. That gives
time for the participants to learn the discipline and value the practice of it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><i><font size=5 color=black face="Viner Hand ITC"><span
style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Viner Hand ITC"'>Sunny</span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=3 color=black
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Sunny <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Walker</st1:place></st1:City></span></font></st1:PersonName><font
face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>SunWalker Enterprises</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>303-587-3017 (cell)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>303-671-0704 (home/office)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'><a
href="mailto:sunwalker@comcast.net">sunwalker@comcast.net</a></span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Aurora</span></font></st1:City><font
face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri'>, <st1:State w:st="on">CO</st1:State></span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=purple face=Pristina><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Pristina;color:purple'>No mattter how far
you've gone down the wrong road, turn back. ~ Turkish Proverb</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces@lists.wedgeblade.net] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lawrence Philbrook<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, May 03, 2012 9:51
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Colleague
Dialogue</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Dialogue] Guernica
& Conversation Roots & Shoots</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Well said John, How deep also depends on the
facilitator listening and adapting to the dialogue being pursued. Each is
speaking into and creating the 4 levels and the "right" question is
that which opens the door in this conversation, sometime that question is
silence.<br>
<br>
With respect, Larry<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Lawrence</span></font></st1:place></st1:City> Philbrook, Certified ToP Facilitator<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Director, Institute of Cultural Affairs <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Taiwan</st1:place></st1:country-region> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.icatw.com">www.icatw.com</a> Tel: 8862-2871-3150 Fax: 8862-2871-2870<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Skype: icalarry<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>President <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">ICA</st1:place></st1:City> International/ Member Global Leadership Team<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ICAI Office c/o <st1:City
w:st="on">ICA</st1:City> <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>, <st1:Street
w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">655 Queen Street East</st1:address></st1:Street><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Toronto</span></font></st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">ON</st1:State></st1:place>. M4M 1G4 <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.ica-international.org">www.ica-international.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
On 5/3/2012 11:21 PM, <a href="mailto:jlepps@pc.jaring.my">jlepps@pc.jaring.my</a>
wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Colleagues:<br>
<br>
Since this stream has involved a bit of ORID-bashing (or de-sanctifying if you
prefer) I’d like to say a little on its behalf. <br>
<br>
O-R-I-D is simply the sequence in which the mind works. We perceive something,
we react to it, we make sense of it, and we act appropriately. When a
facilitator sequences conversation questions in that order, the dialogue flows
naturally. The “depth” to which it goes depends on the subject and
the group and, to some extent, the facilitator. <br>
<br>
We recently presented this “method” to a group of judges in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Singapore</st1:place></st1:country-region> and
invited them to try it with a scripted conversation at their 5 tables. The
topic was “mentors.” The bottom dropped out; All five table
conversations went deep, and awe filled the room. On reflection, the people
gathered said the reason it worked was the sequence of the questions: they
flowed naturally. Often that type conversation yields pious or abstract
characteristics of mentors; this one was specific and based on experience of
group members. As an outside observer during this conversation, I thought it
became a spirit conversation under the category of meditation. <br>
<br>
ORID, though belonging to the ToP suite of methods, is not “ours”
alone. I attended a workshop at an IAF meeting in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region>
in which the workshop leader (from the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region>) presented a conversation method
entitled 4-F (facts, feelings, findings, future). The leader had never heard of
ORID. <br>
<br>
When you see what passes for group conversations in most situations, having a
sensible sequence that considers how the mind works is a major step forward.
How “deep” we let it go depends on how well thought-through our
questions are at the “I” and “D” levels – and
what is our aim in conducting the conversation in the first place. <br>
<br>
I look forward to your responses.<br>
<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">John Epps</st1:PersonName><br>
<br>
<br>
At 05:06 AM 5/3/2012, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Steve,<br>
<br>
I revere the "art form" methodology as much as and appreciate its
contribution over the years to our "knowing." However, in more
recent years I've arrived at a slightly evolved understanding of knowing,
having not so much to do with clarity, awareness, consciousness and all of that
as we used to define those words. For me knowing now has more to do with
"metanoia," what the late Willis Harman called "mind change,"
which I take to mean seeing the world differently to the extent that one
revises ones stories of reality and as a result, lives life differently.
The NT translation of "metanoia" is "born again," and it
can occur again and again in the course of a lifetime.<br>
<br>
To allow this to happen, I'm finding conversational approaches like Bohmian
(physicist David Bohm) dialogue to be more effective. It is much less
structured than ORID, and therefore more open-ended and less prescriptive about
desired outcomes. It is more of an art than an art form. The
conclusions arrived at by the individual participants are less important than
the communal bonds established in the process, built not on the basis of having
arrived at a common mind (read "consensus") regarding the subject at
hand, but on the foundation of discovered and acknowledged interdependence and
shared destiny, i.e., community. ORID, which still has a valuable role to
play in our work, depends more on the discipline of the facilitator. "Dialogue"
seems to me to depend more on the discipline of the participants, with a
skilled facilitator way over on the side.<br>
<br>
I think generally we <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">ICA</st1:place></st1:City>
types need to loosen up a bit, occasionally put away our work sheets with
prescribed outcomes, and acknowledge that good things can happen, and are
happening, without our having to engineer them--in the midst of which we can be
participants with meaningful contributions to make in our role as
partners. <br>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
"Listen to what is emerging from yourself to the course of being in the
world; not to be supported by it, but to bring it to reality as it
desires."<br>
-Martin Buber (adapted)<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> steve har <a
href="mailto:stevehar11201@gmail.com"><stevehar11201@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:dialogue@wedgeblade.net">dialogue@wedgeblade.net</a> <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, May 1, 2012 1:08 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Dialogue] Guernica &
Conversation Roots & Shoots<br>
</span></font><br>
<br>
Regarding <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City>'s
assertion: "The basic phenomonology of the conversation method has not
changed. It has always been oriented toward the ontological. If it isn't, it is
some other method - put it that way."<br>
<br>
<font color="#222222" face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:#222222'>With
respect, I'm afraid I disagree with <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City>'s
assertion that the basic conversation method has changed. What has changed is
the the emphasis of the conversation. <br>
<br>
In the Art Form method the conversation is "for" being. It is
ontological-existential and ethical. In the ORID format [as articulated in ToP]
the focus is knowing and sharing something inside the context of a
facilitator-client agreement with a particular group of participants. the
conversation is "for" knowing i.e epistemological.<br>
<br>
Brian Stanfield's wonderful book of Focused Conversations really highlights
this shift to the client-consultant workplace -which was a new field of
engagement in which to practice conversation making. <br>
<br>
Reading Brian's workplace conversation models is like reading the music scores
for Bach's Well-tempered Clavier. Publishing those models really did change the
conversation focus in my view. Of course there is other music to score and play
besides Bach's and there are other conversations to model besides conversations
for knowing [epistemology].<br>
<br>
</span></font> JWM's NRM monastic distinctions are really
powerful: Knowing | Being | Doing are actually phenomenological distinctions
for sorting out the internal and social experiences that open up in
conversations and dialogues. <br>
<br>
<font color="#222222" face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:#222222'>A
conversation "for Being" [ontology] is an entirely different
score and it creates an entirely different kind of conversational
"music" that has a much wider and deeper expression - like the
original Guernica Art From conversation did or like the Tombstone conversation
did. In these conversations, you get to declare something, you get to take a
stand and say what you value. The questions can reveal personal character, what
was lost, what was gained, who you are being in this moment as a human being.
The conversation can be profoundly existential i.e. ontological. It can also
contain varieties of ontological language like mythological and religious
expression.<br>
<br>
There are 2 wonderful "Tombstone Conversations" for being done
recently by Charlie Rose in commemorating the death of <br>
</span></font><a href="http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12297"
moz-do-not-send=true>http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12297</a> and
Christa Tippitt Contemplating Mortality <br>
<a href="http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/contemplating-mortality/"
moz-do-not-send=true>http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/contemplating-mortality/</a>
<br>
<font color="#222222" face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:#222222'><br>
A conversation for Doing -using JWM's NRM phenomenology is Largely unexplored
in my opinion. <st1:PersonName w:st="on">John Epps</st1:PersonName> wrote some
brilliant and new Other World in This World conversations in 1996 which I found
in the 6th floor Archives last summer. last summer we tried some over skype.
Bruce Hanson gave a wonderful talk using the other world charts and Hoksai's
pictures to describe an Appreciative Inquiry assignment at Hitachi Company on
the outskirts of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City>.
He talked about himself as being a navigator on an otherworld trek.<br>
<br>
In my view the Jenkins's book on the 9 disciplines is a clearheaded translation
of the old monastic categories. What remains is to see clearly the Knowing
Being and Doing phenomenology in practice and in roles like the role of a
facilitator and the new roles of pedagogue, story maker, coach, navigator<br>
<br>
So in sum, the point wasn't to jump on <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City>'s
good thoughts. The point is to make some new distinctions about conversations
that freshen the wind and hear new music...<br>
<br>
Steve <br>
</span></font> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Steve Harrington<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Dialogue mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net" moz-do-not-send=true>Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net"
moz-do-not-send=true eudora=autourl>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Dialogue mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net"
moz-do-not-send=true eudora=autourl>http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dialogue mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net">Dialogue@lists.wedgeblade.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net">http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
</body>
</html>