[Dialogue] A question about the distant past

[James Wiegel]

I don’t do this very well

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUk2c_1SJ0s-aMvfLwIihtUPfeGPWQ8ld

This might work

Jim Wiegel
“A revolution is on the horizon:  a wholesale transformation of the world economy and the way people live.”  Fred Krupp


> On Oct 21, 2021, at 10:34 PM, James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Click the link for a clip from Joe Slicker, and a playlist from colleagues
> 
> https://youtu.be/_7hwHDLQheI
> 
> 
> Jim Wiegel
> “A revolution is on the horizon:  a wholesale transformation of the world economy and the way people live.”  Fred Krupp
> 
> 
>>> On Oct 21, 2021, at 9:03 PM, Karenbueno via Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> I remember that about 1972 we were moving into India, and we were told they didn't really want more Christians.  I think that was when Joe Mathews made his remark about an end run around the church.
>> 
>> Karen Bueno
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: W. J. via Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> To: Dialogue Lists <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> Cc: W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>; O:E Lists <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>> Sent: Thu, Oct 21, 2021 5:40 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A question about the distant past
>> 
>> Let's go a little deeper than the image of those little cigar boxes with steeples!
>> 1. That image refers to the gift of the existing geographical positioning of a global institution in 'the local'. There's a penetration strategy there.
>> 2. Then there's the historical wisdom that the proclamation of the Word about life is transformative both for individuals and for social structures that groups and individuals are empowered to change. The transformation of the Roman Empire and the 'Christianization' of pagan Europe are part of our history. Jesus was a very obscure nobody messiah in a very minor and rebellious bit of geography.
>> 3. Then there's the reality that the institutionalization and institutional forms of 'church' and 'Christianity' are always ripe for, and in need of, structural revolution, or transformative 'infiltration' (for lack of a better term).
>> 4. Remember Stalin's model of social change from RS-1? It was about creating an organized 'elite' with a 'vision' that transforms society by impacting old dead structures with 'imaginal education' (our term) and modeling 'comprehensive community reformulation' (our term) and 'womb to tomb' care for every human being within a given hunk of geography through the dynamic tactical implementation of a locally determined, targeted strategic model that addresses the underlying contradictions by 'cadres' of trained and motivated corporate community groups. Or something like that.
>> But the bottom line question(s) for me are:
>> 1. Were we strategic in our focus on the 'historical church'? Was there a 'Plan B' (like 'ICA')?
>> 2. Were our efforts just too little and/or too late? 
>> 3. What happened to our strategic focus on the 'historical church' with our 'turn to the world'? Were we hedging our bets?
>> 4. Given the radical secularization and globalization of human cultures, is the westernized form of the 'historical church' just irrelevant as a vehicle for 'glocal' change?
>> 5. What alternative strategy/target structure could we have bet on with our whole lives and the internal mission structures of a 'religious order'? The Kiwanis Club? The Salvation Army?
>> 6. We had a twentieth-century strategy that was arguably culturally relevant 'back then.' What would be radically new in creating a twenty-first-century strategy in a radically changed 'glocal' culture?
>> Maybe this is enough to get a ball rolling with further reflections. Go for it, guys.
>> Marshall
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thursday, October 21, 2021, 02:42:21 PM EDT, Ken Fisher via Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jim,
>> 
>> How about…..
>> 
>> Around the world, 1 million little cigar boxes with steeples.
>> 
>> What if they all took responsibility for the geography of their parish boundaries without regard for membership or dogma?
>> 
>> All the challenges, all the ages, all the people, all the decisions, all the goods?
>> 
>> Ken
>> 
>>> On Oct 21, 2021, at 1:21 PM, James Wiegel via Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> What was the analysis and strategy that led to “the renewal of the local church for the sake of the world”??
>> 
>> I think there was one, but time wears away memories or, at least, hides them
>> 
>> Anyone??
>> 
>> Jim Wiegel
>> “A revolution is on the horizon:  a wholesale transformation of the world economy and the way people live.”  Fred Krupp
>> 
>>> On Oct 21, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Ellie Stock via OE <oe at lists.wedgeblade.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> View this email in your browser
>>  
>>  
>> He Calls us to the Task of Loving
>>  
>> Essay by Rev. Deshna Shine
>> October 21, 2021
>> I miss him and he was never really mine. Meaning he was rarely even in my life. He was not my pastor, my family member or even really my friend. Though I would have loved to call him each of those. He was not mine. He was someone on the periphery of my life, a hero, a distant lighthouse. He was a giant to me and yet, he was one of the most down to earth humans I have ever known. And I miss him and deeply wish I had sat at his table more often.
>> When he wrote a recommendation letter for my application into the Chaplaincy Institute, he wrote, "I would welcome Deshna as my pastor and my friend.” I was in a bit of shock when I read that part. What in the world could I offer this incredible human being in either of those roles? I wish I had believed those words, believed in myself sooner and made the effort to become his friend. I regret not writing him more often. Yes, we were colleagues at some level. Yes, we respected each other, and yes, I had the honor of working with him as his new publisher of this newsletter. But here was a living hero inviting me to befriend him and I was just… what? Busy? Scared? Lacking confidence? Intimidated? Something got in my way of accepting that invitation. And it makes me wonder, as I look at the blur of those years and all those moments I could have reached out, how often do we get in our own way?
>> I read his words each week. His precise, wise, eloquent, compassionate, and passionate words. I made suggestions here and there, minor edits, paragraph spaces, meaningless things. Christine had already done the real work of editing and shaping his brilliant prose into words that made sense and moved us. I read them and was never not moved. He had the unique ability to bring to life the story of Jesus, to guide us past the literal and into the mystical. If I had been paying more attention, I would have seen how I was getting in my own way of living fully and loving wastefully. I would have seen his kind words as an invitation.
>> In his last lecture, in June of 2018 at the Chautauqua Institution’s Interfaith Lecture Series, Jack said, “I tried to develop a crucial distinction between the Christ experience and the Christ explanation. The experience is real and timeless; the explanation is in the language of its day and is thereby time-warped and time-bound. The explanation must be surrendered, but the experience does not have to go with it.”
>> He did not just try. He succeeded. Fully and with an impact on millions of people’s faith and lives. The Christ experience that he illuminated for us was one of deep profound love, boundarylessness, and a life fully lived. The Christ experience that Jack so clearly saw and shared, was one of universalism, of open doors and open hearts. Jack saw God within Jesus and within each of us. He set out to discover the “holy within every human” and he found powerful ways to live into that awareness by lifting up all humans as beloved, divine beings.
>> I wrote my last column on nuanced conversation and I intended to write this one on how Jesus used nuanced language in his teachings… but that will have to wait. However, it’s fitting, because today I write of a man who was so comfortable in nuance that he banished duality from his ministry! Dualism has no life force in nuance. Dualism is not a part of God or Christ. God is not a being, he taught, God is Be-ing. God is Being fully. Humans cannot conceptualize God, he said, it is not possible. God is not black or white, male or female, angry or loving. God is so much more complex and incomprehensible than that. Though we can’t conceptualize or frame God into some neat and tidy box, we can experience God.
>> Jack experienced God as the source of all life. There is no duality within God, there is only sacred oneness. And so he reminded us that if God is the source of all life, then the best way to worship God is to live fully. Jack also experienced God as the source of love. “Love is the power that embraces life. Love flows through the whole universe. The love of God is present in the mama cat taking care of her kittens, in the cow licking the new born calf. If God is the source of love, then the only way I can worship God is by loving and loving wastefully!”
>> I sit here today, tears streaming down my cheeks, wondering when have I refused this invitation. The invitation that Jesus called us to and showed us by example? When have I gotten in my own way of living fully and loving wastefully? When have I judged others, deemed them unworthy of my love? When have I seen someone as unclean? Undeserving? Where have I been stagnant, bored, lazy, scared, distracted, unmindful, when I could have been fully alive and present?
>> The answer, I know, is not to look back and feel shame and regret. The answer is to look fully at myself now and see a human who is trying so hard to become something that I am exhausted and full of guilt and shame! My effort to become gets in the way of my Being. In a world where God is hard to find, we hold ourselves to some unachievable level that we must get to if we are to deserve to be fully accepted and loved wastefully.
>> Jack said, “By wasteful love I mean the kind of love that never stops to calculate, never stops to wonder whether the object of its love is worthy to be its recipient. Wasteful love is love that never stops to calculate deserving. It is love that loves, not because love has been earned. It is an act of loving wastefully. That is where God is made visible.” At what point will I consider myself worthy of wasteful love? How can I be a beacon of wasteful love in my own life and ministry?
>> Jack taught me that Jesus calls us to the mission to transform the world so that every living being has the opportunity to live fully, love wastefully and be all that they can be. In this experience of God, there are no outcasts, no others. In this experience of God, we are fully accepted just as we are. That must and can only begin within each of us. First we must accept ourselves fully as we are, “without one plea.” And then we must put ourselves on task of growing to BE all that we can be and loving the world wastefully.
>> Jack told us a story of Jesus that embodied this mission. This Jesus was not changed by flattery or even the threat of death. He was fully himself always. He loved so totally, so wastefully, he was “an infinite source of love.”
>> And so, the brilliant man, my hero and would be friend, leaves us with such a simple mission “to live fully, love wastefully, and become all that we can be.” He invites us to embrace life, to increase love and to have the courage to be. I passed on his invitation before, I failed to fully live because I couldn’t fully love myself. I certainly couldn’t waste love on myself. But I hear you now, Beloved One. I see you and I stand with so many others who have heard your call.
>> The Christ in me is an infinite well of love that I can pour wastefully, over myself, over you, over all of life. God within me asks for nothing less than a life fully lived. May I rest from this eternal struggle of becoming and see within me a perfect being. May the infinite well of love within me overflow over all of humanity. May I see each living being with eyes of the Christ, where no boundaries exist. May my love “bring oneness out of diversity, wholeness out of brokenness, and eternity out of time.” May we join together in this ministry, the ministry of Be-ing a Christian and disciples of Jesus Christ.
>> To my friend, my dear Jack Spong. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation not just to work with you or to be your friend, but the one of your life’s calling and prophecy. The invitation to each of us to walk through the doorway of Jesus into the mystery of God. Thank you for your bravery, your courage, and your resilience. You didn’t just try, you succeeded. You lived fully, loved wastefully and became all that you could be. Thank you for showing us the way.
>> 
>> ~ Rev. Deshna Shine
>> 
>> Read online here
>> 
>> About the Author
>> Rev. Deshna Shine is Project Director of ProgressiveChristianity.org’s Children’s Curriculum.  She is an ordained Interfaith Minister, author, international speaker, and visionary. She grew up in a thriving progressive Christian church and has worked in the field for over 13 years. She graduated from UCSB with a major in Religious Studies and a minor in Global Peace and Security. She was Executive Director of ProgressiveChristianity.org, Executive Producer of Embrace Festival and has co-authored the novel, Missing Mothers. Deshna is passionate about sacred community, nourishing children spiritually and transforming Christianity through a radically inclusive lens.
>> Question & Answer
>>  
>> Q: By Alice
>> 
>> Growing up and attending a southern Baptist church, I was constantly aware of the term salvation. I am now, thankfully, attending a more progressive and open minded church (PCUSA), but still hear this word. I have never been comfortable with this term and would like to know how you see salvation and what it actually means in progressive Christianity.
>> 
>> A: By Rev. Dr. Robin R. Meyers
>>  
>> Dear Alice,
>> Great question, and a perennial one for those who grew up in more conservative churches where “salvation” meant believing certain things in order to get certain rewards, especially the assurance of going to heaven.  Your discomfort comes from critical thinking, since to be “saved” assumes that you are lost and cannot save yourself.  It also assumes that we are born into Original Sin as an inheritance, like being born left-handed or with red hair.  Like so much of the language of evangelical Christianity, the “believer” is helpless and hopeless until we submit to a higher power.  Or, more accurately, until we agree to say that we “accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior” and know that our sins were forgiven by his death on the cross.  It also assumes that the whole purpose of the life of Jesus was to die, when in fact he was killed.  So, when you begin to consider old words like “salvation” and what they might mean in progressive Christianity, it is always helpful to turn to the wisdom of Marcus Borg, whose work in helping us reconsider and even redefine words like salvation is found in a book called “Speaking Christian.”  Here are some of his words on this topic that I hope will be helpful:
>> 
>> The term “salvation” and the concept afterlife have been linked in Christian and religious conversation. Salvation has been made to be about gaining a “positive” afterlife.  It has become a normative thought that this is the point of all religions—to ensure a happy eternal resting place.  Borg would argue that the goal of the Christian life is salvation—but not primarily about before or after death ... . The best single English synonym for “salvation”—“transformation”. Transformation of ourselves and the world. It’s about personal transformation and transformation of society as a whole. Salvation can be experienced as healing—a salve. Salvation is a healing ointment. Giving the transformation from blindness to seeing. In Eastern orthodoxy—primary definition of salvation is enlightenment. Jesus came as a light in our darkness, etc. This speaks to the idea of living people who are dead inside—salvation being the transformation from death to life. Moving people from pre-occupation and anxiety to presence and compassion. Salvation is about the individual transforming and also the transformation of the world, transformation from a world justice to a world of justice. Transformation from a world of war to a world of peace.
>> ~ Rev. Dr. Robin R. Meyers
>> 
>> Read and share online here
>> 
>> About the Author
>> Rev. Dr. Robin R. Meyers is retired senior minister of Mayflower Congregational UCC Church, Oklahoma City, Distinguished Professor of Social Justice Emeritus in the Philosophy Department at Oklahoma City University, where he still teaches.  He is the author of eight books on religion and American culture, the most recent of which is, “Saving God from Religion:  A Minister’s Search for Faith in a Skeptical Age.”  More information is at RobinMeyers.com
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>> Bishop John Shelby Spong Revisited
>> 
>> Examining the Meaning of the Resurrection, Part III:
>> Where Were the Disciples When They Saw?
>> 
>> Essay by Bishop John Shelby Spong
>> June 16, 2011
>> When people have a life-changing experience, they tend to freeze in their minds forever where they were and even what they were doing when the news broke or the new awareness entered their world.  I can recall to this day where I was when, as a ten-year old child, I heard the news of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.  When I was 32 and a young priest, I remember my precise circumstances in which I learned of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.  Almost everyone in America, but especially those of us who live in the New York City area, can recall where we were and with whom when the recognition dawned that the World Trade Center had been attacked with commandeered commercial airliners being driven into the Twin Towers.
>> 
>> Each of these moments was a shaping experience and each would be lived and relived in our memories for the rest of our lives.  The recent navy seal raid on Bin Laden’s secret hideout in Pakistan and the death of the planner and perpetrator of this monstrous act caused many to relive that original moment and to recall just how its awareness not only entered, but also shaped our lives.
>> 
>> The New Testament clearly regarded the moment we have named “Easter” as a life-changing experience, indeed so powerful a moment was it that eventually the followers of Jesus decided to make it indelible for all of history by making the decision to view the life of Jesus as the life by which history was itself divided.  So all of human history came to be seen and understood as having two distinct parts.  There were the years before Christ, which were to be called BC, and the years after Christ referred to as years lived in the power of his ongoing and continued presence, which we called Anno Domini, or AD, “The Year of our Lord.”
>> 
>> Given both that human proclivity of remembering and the impact which the first Easter brought to the followers of Jesus, it is surprising, perhaps even amazing, that the New Testament does not seem to know where the disciples were when whatever the experience occurred that we came to call “the resurrection of Jesus.”  The gospels simply do not agree on the disciples’ location when Easter dawned in their conscious awareness.  There are two centers that appear to compete for the honor, one is Galilee and the other is Jerusalem.  Let me now go through the available biblical data and lay out the evidence contained therein.
>> 
>> We start with Paul because he is the first author of any book or work that is today contained in the New Testament.  Paul, however, turns out not to be particularly helpful.  He gives us no location for any of his “witnesses.”  All he tells us is that Peter was the first to see and then “the Twelve.”  Clearly their natural setting would be Galilee since all of them were in fact Galileans.  We are told, however, that they did go to Jerusalem for the Passover so they could have been in Jerusalem.  If the connection between Passover and the crucifixion is a liturgical interpretation more than a historical recollection, as I have previously suggested, the argument would be stronger that the “appearances” to which Paul is referring were events that happened in Galilee.  The best we can say, however, is that the witness of Paul on this issue is ambivalent and so we move on.
>> 
>> Turning to Mark, the earliest gospel (70-72), we find the anomaly to which I have previously referred, namely, that this original gospel does not relate a resurrection appearance by Jesus to anyone.  Mark has only a tomb story that would clearly be in Jerusalem, but at the tomb the women find the grave empty and they hear a proclamation from one who is described only as “a young man in a white robe,” who tells them that Jesus has been raised and who then directs the women to tell the disciples that Jesus “goes before you to Galilee and there you will see him as he said unto you.”  The last few words in this quotation refer back to an earlier text in Mark in which Jesus predicts that the disciples will be scattered, but “after I am raised up I will go before you into Galilee.”  It is clear that Mark believes that the disciples would and did encounter the risen Christ in Galilee.  It is also clear to biblical scholars that Mark’s gospel ends at 16:8 and that both the shorter ending (16:9-10), an account of an appearance to Magdalene, and the longer ending (16:14-20), which recounts an appearance “to the Eleven” are added to Mark many years later, probably in the second century, in an attempt to harmonize Mark with the other gospels.  The earliest manuscripts of Mark did not contain these additions and they are universally regarded in the world of biblical scholarship as inauthentic.  So we have a probable vote in Paul and an overt suggestion in Mark that Galilee is the place where the disciples are located when the meaning of Easter comes to them and captures them.
>> 
>> Matthew is a further witness to the Galilean tradition.  This second gospel, written in the early to mid eighties, however, does contradict Mark, whose gospel he obviously has in hand and from which he draws much of his material, by suggesting that the women saw the raised Jesus at the tomb.  That would be a witness to the Jerusalem tradition.  Mark had said that they did not.  Luke agrees with Mark and says the women did not see him, so Matthew’s contrary view is highly suspect.  Matthew, however, does agree that it was only in Galilee that “the Twelve” have a resurrection experience.  This, in fact, is the first biblical account of the risen Christ appearing to the disciples anywhere.  Matthew, having heard by now the story of the defection of Judas, calls them “the Eleven.”  This Matthean narrative is, however a very strange one.  The risen Christ who appears is not a physically-resuscitated body, but rather a transformed and glorified one, and though the ascension story had not yet been written, he is clearly an ascended, heavenly being.  He comes out of the clouds to a mountain top.  Matthew says that Jesus had directed the disciples to this particular mountain, though there is no indication as to when that direction was given.  Then in that Galilean setting, Jesus is said to have given the great commission: “Go into all the world.”  This was the first time that a suggestion was made that the raised Christ had spoken to anyone.  Matthew, though ambivalent is surely in the Galilee column.
>> 
>> Luke counters the Galilean tradition sharply.  The resurrection of Jesus for him is a Jerusalem area only event.  In Luke the women do not see Jesus at the tomb, but Cleopas and his unnamed traveling companion experience him in the breaking of bread in the village of Emmaus, less than six miles from Jerusalem.   Luke later tells us that the raised Christ has also appeared to Peter, presumably that was also in Jerusalem.  Finally, according to Luke, Jesus appears to all the disciples in the afternoon of Easter Day, bids them peace, identifies himself clearly, asks for food to eat, opens their minds to understand the scriptures, directs them to remain in Jerusalem until “empowered” from on high and then departs.  Luke specifically denies any Galilean experience connected with Easter.
>> 
>> When we come to the Fourth Gospel, Jesus first appears to Mary at the tomb, then to the disciples that evening in Jerusalem in a locked and barred room without Thomas being present.  One week later, still in Jerusalem, John tells us that Jesus appears again to the disciples, but this time with Thomas present.  That is where the gospel of John seems to end.  Then, however, we have an epilogue, relating yet another appearance to the disciples, but this time it is much later and it is in Galilee by the Sea of Galilee, and with this narrative the epilogue ends.
>> 
>> That is the biblical data and it reveals significant conflict about where the disciples were, physically, when Easter was dawned on them.  Paul probably, Mark by inference and Matthew specifically say that the disciples were in Galilee when they “saw” the risen Christ.  Luke refutes that and makes the Jerusalem area the sole locale of resurrection.  John supports Luke in the Fourth Gospel itself, but in the attached epilogue, the scene is clearly Galilee.  With such inconclusive data, our next step is to look at the various accounts of the resurrection in each of the two locales.  When we do that the scales begin to tilt toward Galilee for a number of reasons.  The Galilean narratives are vague, primitive and mysterious and thus appear to be original.  They express something of the stunned and startled response that feels natural in those circumstances.  In the Jerusalem narratives, the miraculous has been heightened and the body has become quite physical.  The resurrected body of Jesus can even be touched and handled.  Only in the Jerusalem stories does the risen Christ do such physical things as eat, walk, talk and interpret scripture.  By every measurement, Galilee seems to be original and Jerusalem seems to be a later development.
>> 
>> We have one final test.  Remembering that no gospel is written except in the light of the resurrection, we examine some other stories in the gospels that are set in Galilee and which seem to have resurrection themes attached to them.  The accounts of Jesus walking on the water and stilling the storm are both Galilean stories.  The narrative of the disciples confessing Jesus as messiah has a Galilean setting.  Jesus being transfigured before their eyes together with the long- deceased Moses and Elijah is set in Galilee.  All of these narratives have a numinous, mysterious quality about them.  These are the data that tip our conclusion toward an original Galilean setting.  It is far easier to understand how the resurrection experience might have been shifted out of Galilee to the much more prestigious location in Jerusalem, than it is to imagine a shift going in the other direction.  Recall that the birth of Jesus, which in all probability occurred in Nazareth of Galilee, was also shifted to Bethlehem near Jerusalem to provide Jesus with a more prestigious place of birth.
>> 
>> Our clues thus begin to be assembled.  Peter appears to have been the first to “see” and thus the first to experience whatever resurrection was.  That experience appears to have occurred to him in Galilee.  We turn next to the “when” question and examine the meaning of “three days.”
>> ~  John Shelby Spong
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