[Dialogue] Fwd: The right question, continued

[Ken Fisher]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Gene Marshall <jgmarshall at cableone.net>
Date: July 19, 2012 10:42:57 AM EDT
To: James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The right question, continued

Dear Jim,

It is good to talk with you.  Our old minds probably need to join forces on these matters of heritage and their updating.

As you know,  Stanfield and I worked together for many years in the Academy. We probably gave pretty much the same talks on the Transestablishment at that time.  His pull together in The Courage to Lead does not seem to me inconsistent with my revisiting of this topic in The Road.  I am addressing there the general progressive movement and attempting to clarify who our trustworthy forces are for the transformation outlined in that book.  I see a portion of the proestablishment as possible allies of a fully post-civilization perspective.  I see a portion of the disestablishment as possible allies of a fully post civilization perspective.  I am viewing the transestablishment in this hour of history as being those who see clearly that saving civilization is not a doable option, that we must replace civilization with something unprecedented.   This is a core thesis of the book -- that the transition we are experiencing is like the transition from tribal society to civilization, a very radical one. We are building a mode of social organization that is indeed a New Social Vehicle.  I think it was Kenneth Boulding who first introduced to me the concept of post-civilization.  The full radicality of that concept has reached a sort of zenith for me.  I can now see that the 18th Century democratic vision and the 20th Century ecological vision were aspects of the beginning of the end for the whole fabric of that topdown, hierarchical, wealth-controlled social order we have called "civilization."  Being civilized is no longer good enough for survival and thrival of the human species. Those of us who see this truth can appropriately call ourselves the "Transestablishment" for this century.

Gene


On Jul 19, 2012, at 7:05 AM, James Wiegel wrote:

> Thanks for all the reflection.  Due to the wonders of technology, i was able to consult the chapter from eco democracy on my ipad and also glance at Stanfield, et. al, and their description of pro dis trans.  Just a small question  I find myself recalling an aspect of this that more focused on the dynamics of social evolution, you might say, and less on the dynamics of change forces.   The little "story" went something like this:  at any moment of time you have a set of structures (might even say structures, images and ways of participating) that are the currently established way of doing things.  No matter how "inclusive" or "just", some people, or groups, or, you might have to say species, fall out of these structures, images, ways of participating, while, at the same time some are being served and cared for.  This is the beginning of pro and dis. I recall something like this as a description of the "turn" symbol, sometime last century.  Is my memory simply illusion?
> 
> More on topic, someone mentioned "The Prophetic Imagination" a couple of weeks ago.  I found Bruggeman's description of the social context around the Israeli prophetic tradition very helpful.  He talks about the royal consciousness that had developed in Israel ( and makes allusion to our current time, that both those critical of and supporting of that royal consciousness are part of it). He also supported a piece from ecodemocracy in pointing out that, in our current social situation both the liberal and conservative sides long to live in a past that is gone.
> 
> 
> 
> He also described prophecy as arising from the existence of alternative communities which can birth and grow up alternative visions and give rise to authentic prophetic imagination.  There were also two different aspects of this, a passionate, and deep description of things that was able to break through attachment to positions and evoke genuine grief and mourning, and also a painting of a future that was able to bring forth passion, courage and creativity
> 
> 
> 
> Barrier 1: Inequality undermines trust that we are all in this together.
> 
> B2: A lack of a clear alternative vision.
> 
> B3: Individuals cannot do it alone. That is, social and governmental organization is required.
> 
> B4: An economic (and political) system that is captive to the oil and gas industry and its insatiable hunger for growth and profit. That is, government agencies will have to manage the long-run phasing out of fossil fuels because these companies consider that last barrel of profit making goo their right.
> 
> B5: Climate change is not merely an environmental problem for environments adherents.  It is the problem for every institution in society.
> 
> B6: People need hope, agency, and voice.  It is now the case that people feel powerless.  We need to see ourselves as the U-Turn generation on this topic. We need to experience stopping the expansion of the problem and experience instead an accelerating momentum of transition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Wiegel
> Jfwiegel at yahoo.com
> 
> “One cannot live in the afternoon of life according to the program of life’s morning; for what was great in the morning will be of little importance in the evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have become a lie.” – Carl Jung
> 
> Partners in Participation Upcoming public course opportunities:
> ToP Facilitation Methods, Sept 11-12, 2012
> ToP Strategic Planning, Oct 9-10, 2012
> The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday- Sept 7, 2012
> Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program is available in Phoenix in 2012-3. Program begins on Nov 14-16, 2012 
> See short video http://partnersinparticipation.com/?page_id=55 and website for further details.
> 
> On Jul 18, 2012, at 22:21, Ken Fisher <hkf232 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dear Randy,
>> 
>> We need to get together for another long talk.
>> 
>> I want to comment on your recent comments.  See CAPS below.
>> 
>> Gene
>> 
>> RANDY:  Regarding contradiction B2, I believe there is at least one partial alternative vision emerging as articulated by Jeremy Rifkin in The Third Industrial Revolution.  In a nutshell, it involves a kind of energy/ecological democracy.  Rifkin names 5 sources of alternative energy; solar, wind, hydro, bio-mass and geo-thermal.  Every home, factory and office building has proximity to at least one of those and can therefore produce energy for its own use and to spare at its own locale.  The surplus can be stored using hydrogen technology and distributed via an energy network modeled after the internet.
>> 
>> GENE:  YES, I AGREE THAT THIS IS PART OF THE ALTERNATIVE VISION, A THIRD INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION BEGINNING WITH ENERGY. HYDROGEN IS CLEARLY VERY IMPORTANT.  ACCORDING TO DAVID SANBORN SCOTT, HYDROGEN AND ELECTRICTY CAN BE AND NEED TO  BECOME THE TWO MAIN MEANS (CURRENCIES) FOR DELIVERING ENERGY TO THE USER.
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> RANDY: If you're familiar with Rifkin's work, he also insists that the "third industrial revolution" is not the final destination, but rather a stepping stone on the way to an "empathic (serving) civilization."
>> 
>> GENE: YES, I READ PART OF RIFKIN'S  EMPATHY BOOK.  JOYCE READ IT ALL AND REVIEWED IT IN OUR JOURNAL.  IT MAY BE WE WILL NEED AN EMPHATIC POST-CIVILIZATION TO EXTRICATE OURSELVES FROM INDUSTRIAL CIVILIZATION AND COMPLETE THE NEXT INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> RANDY: Just two points from what John has said that I would highlight or expound on.  One is that complexity need not be chaotic or exasperating.  It can be seen as an opportunity borne of abundance.  Certainly John does not say otherwise.
>> 
>> GENE: YES, I THINK COMPLEXITY NEED NOT BE EXASPERATING.  AND THE PLANET SURELY HAS ABUNDANCE FOR FOUR OR FIVE BILLION PEOPLE.  THAT ABUNDANCE IS CURRENTLY GOING TO A FEW PEOPLE.  THE EQUITY REVOLUTION BEING VOICED BY THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT IS, I BELIEVE THE PRIOR ISSUE TO FINDING THE NEW ABUNDANCE.
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> RANDY: Second, it would be interesting if it were possible to map out all the interdependent pieces and entities within our universe and somehow depict the interactions and their influence and effects.  That would perhaps help answer the question of who is the "we" that must learn to be together.
>> 
>> GENE: THE "WE," AS I SEE IT, IS WHAT WE USED TO CALL THE TRANSESTABLISHMENT AS THE INTEGRATING FORCE THAT GIVES GUIDANCE TO PART OF THE PROESTABLISHMENT AND PART OF THE DISESTABLISHMENT.  I SPELL THIS OUT IN DETAIL IN CHAPTER 22 OF THE ROAD FROM EMPIRE TO ECO-DEMOCRACY.  DAVID KORTEN CITED THIS AS ONE THE GREAT CHAPTERS OF THAT BOOK.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dialogue mailing list
>> Dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net
>> http://lists.wedgeblade.net/listinfo.cgi/dialogue-wedgeblade.net


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wedgeblade.net/pipermail/dialogue-wedgeblade.net/attachments/20120719/e5559fbd/attachment-0004.htm>