[Dialogue] Guns

Mon Dec 17 04:28:08 PST 2012

Randy, Yes to what you say. We are a network of "those who care" across the country. Maybe all we need is a simple format and report back system that can be done virtually.
Marianna
On Dec 17, 2012, at 6:50 AM, R Williams wrote:

> It's not like nothing is going to be done on this if we don't do it.  The national conversation is already raging, so the question is, how do we participate in order to add value to the process that's already underway, offering our particular expertise.
>  
> We could ask the ICA-USA to provide some kind of institutional sponsorship if we were going to try to mount a national conversation, but I don't see us launching that kind of centralized effort.  Keep in mind, the ICA has a very small staff and we are the hands and mouths when the ICA does something.  We are already dispersed across the nation in at least two ways?  One is the ToP network and the other is the rest of us who may not be ToP trainers and facilitators but we know how to take people to the depths in conversation and dialogue, and most of us are engaged in our local communities and local organizations--schools, churches, civic associations, service clubs, etc.  Why not use the connections we have?
>  
> Using the approach of the World Cafe, or anything that gets people doing things that that lead to change, perhaps each of us in the communities where we are could initiate some conversations, formally or informally and then find a way to pull all the wisdom and insights together and connect people across the country.  To the degree that any of us want to work together (virtually) to pull together some kind of common format, using the ICA, ToP, or just doing it independently, that would probably be helpful.
>  
> I agree with Marianna about the cultural thing.  But while we're working to change the culture, something has to be done to stop the bleeding, literally and figuratively, and that's the part laws and practices regarding guns and mental health can play.  But what's needed is a change of hearts and minds, i.e. a new story to replace the one that supports our culture of violence.  I contend that historically that's what we've done best and where we should focus our attention, remembering that change at that level is a long-term proposition.
>  
> Randy
>  
>  
>  
> "Whatever the problem, community is the answer.  There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about."  Margaret Wheatley
> 
> From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net>
> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net> 
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 4:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns
> 
> I think guns are a cultural issue. It is going to take far more than laws to solve the gun problem. What about the Institute of Cultural Affairs, could they create a national workshop/conversation? Perhaps in collaboration with another group. I think ICA is more likely to create a conversation and pull together that get to the spirit issue.
> Marianna
> On Dec 17, 2012, at 12:09 AM, Jack Gilles wrote:
> 
>> David,
>> 
>> This community knows the power of Town Meeting. The method works, regardless of the topic. The effectiveness lies in the universal truth of trusting people who know their situation to create solutions. We have hundreds of documented success and thousands of communities that benefited. We haven't discovered any thing that would lead to any other conclusion than it will work. That said, I personally, speaking only for myself, feel that the World Cafe method would be a better forum for this issue.
>> 
>> Jack
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 8:46 PM, David Walters <walters at alaweb.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I think that the folks who recently spent time in the atchives going thru the TM files need to tell us their reflections on this body of materials what that could tell us about doing TMs in the future.
>>> 
>>> -David Walters
>>> 
>>> --- wmbailey at charter.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net>
>>> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at lists.wedgeblade.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Guns
>>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 21:34:29 -0500
>>> 
>>> Now that we have a name of a person to present a plan for community dialogues and assuming that Don will contact Carolyn Lukensmeyer. We need a plan for TMs! Are there some  "old hands" willing to work on process/design? Proposal?
>>> Marianna
>>> On Dec 15, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Don Bushman wrote:
>>> 
>>> I  worked closely with her when she was Dick Celeste's chief of staff.
>>> On Dec 15, 2012 5:21 PM, "Wilson Priscilla" <Pris at teamtechpress.com> wrote:
>>> Does anyone know Carolyn J. Lukensmeyer...who founded and was the president of AmericaSpeaks. She is now Executive Director of the National Institute for Civil Discourse at the University of Arizona.
>>> AmericaSpeaks led a 5,000 person Town Meeting discourse in NYC when the plans first came out for rebuilding Ground Zero.
>>> I was a table facilitator...and quite impressed with the folks they managed to reach. 
>>> Talking with her about a "national" sponsor might produce something. 
>>> 
>>> I think the conversation about needing ways to pull together TM type events in multiple locations makes sense.
>>> All of this after the continuing dialogue here...but it needs to go beyond that.
>>> Priscilla Wilson
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
>>> 
>>> Marianna,
>>> 
>>> TM would be good but you need a "national" sponsor. The World Cate process I think would be easier to do and for this might work better.
>>> 
>>> Jack
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> What about "Town Meetings" ? A 2 hour workshop designed for a community to solve the problem of guns in the community. We need to "brainstorm"  organizations that could sponsor the workshops.
>>> Marianna
>>> On Dec 15, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:
>>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
>>> I like your thinking and the tactics. Your "tiger" strategy really shifts the thinking. Perhaps having a traveling forum with justice department people, gun advocates, local law officials and a way for the local people to speak (tables of five or so) and present a question or suggestion from each table. Go to 10 or 15 locations. All of this telecast by PBS with call in and perhaps 'vote graphs' for affirming ideas. Keep it before the larger picture and audience. Affirm the second amendment, but stress safety, accountability and public health & safety.
>>> 
>>> Jack
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "jlepps at pc.jaring.my" <jlepps at pc.jaring.my> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Lee, for starting this conversation, and for all the contributions. Here's my two cents:
>>> 
>>> I. CONTEXT
>>> I grew up in a home where guns were part of the normal possessions. I've owned a BB, a 22, a 410, and a couple of 12-gage shotguns (though I never was a hunter). Dad, my brother and I all participated in skeet shooting as a hobby, and spent many hours loading shotgun shells for re-use at the range. There was plenty of safety training, both at home and through Boy Scouts. Then in my brief stint with the Army, I earned a sharpshooter medal on the rifle range and learned a lot about the M-1 (major learning: don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill). 
>>> 
>>> For the past 20+ years I have lived in Malaysia where it is a capital offense to own a gun or a bullet, and people have been sent to the gallows for the possession of a single bullet. Occasionally criminals have been found to possess guns -- usually after they've been shot dead by the police. Criminals still function, but usually with machetes. 
>>> 
>>> So my personal relation to the issue has some ambiguity.
>>> 
>>> One other bit of context: We DID succeed with the smoking issue, and that was QUITE a cultural transformation. It's not impossible.
>>> 
>>> II. IDEAS
>>> In addition to the analysis recommended by Randy & Jack, it seems to me some strategic thinking is in order, and a very appropriate way to begin is with the Chinese strategem, "Lure the Tiger out of the mountains." The insight is, if you go tiger hunting, don't do it on the tiger's home turf. That's a strategy for getting eaten! You lure the tiger onto your home turf. Put another way, make it an advantage for the enemy to agree with you.
>>> 
>>> Of course identifying the tiger in this situation is complex. Is it the NRA or gun-owners or the firearms industry? Probably all of the above.
>>> 
>>> So in this case the "tiger bait" might be inviting a debate around the theme of protecting your home & family. One of the arguments from proponents of guns is to provide protection against burglars & other intruders. The rational "hook" in the bait would be to compare statistics of those who've wounded or killed burglars vs those who've been accidentally killed or otherwise murdered with abundant guns. I'm guessing that the statistics would be around 1,000 to 1. But rationality never convinces anyone, though it can disclose the fallacy of an argument.
>>> 
>>> To this, we might add the proposition that all newly built homes are required to have a burglar alarm system installed and connected to the police station. Existing homes could be retro-fitted (with a tax incentive.- similar to the solar energy incentive, this one creatively named "Home Protection System." Think of the jobs!)
>>> 
>>> Another part of the strategy is to make it disadvantageous to oppose gun control. That's what happened when schoolchildren began hassling parents who were smokers. What if school curricula had a module that pointed out the crudity and danger of guns? Then kids might, instead of  playing gun-games, become advocates of no-gun games. (In addition to my previously-mentioned firearm collection, I also had a couple of fine cap pistols!)
>>> 
>>> In terms of regulation, perhaps there might be licenses for hunting (already, but add a license for the gun(s) used); license for skeet shooting, and a license for home protection. The latter would be issued with the purchase of the gun, and a locked container to secure it with a complicated combination.  Of course there needs to be a ban on civilian ownership of assault weapons and multi-shot magazines. These regulations simply make it more inconvenient for gun users to operate. 
>>> 
>>> In addition to licenses, it might be interesting to require purchasers of guns to be enrolled in a "citizen's militia" (the Constitution says that is the basis for the right to bear arms) run by the NRA & local police and conducting required training in safety in use of firearms. The unit might even develop drill teams and perform at sports events! Take a look at this as what a good drill team can look like: http://sorisomail.com/email/16993/exibicao-de-banda-militar--um-espectaculo-imperdivel.html
>>> 
>>> Maybe that would make it easier for the "tigers" to agree. Still it will take some doing -- maybe even some pilot projects (God forbid!).
>>> 
>>> Anyway brainstorms are meant to generate ideas.
>>> 
>>> Of course the cries for increased mental health need to be implemented. Those strategies are long range and necessary.
>>> 
>>> John                            
>>> 
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>>> Priscilla H Wilson
>>> Pris at TeamTechPress.com
>>> 913-432-2107
>>> http://www.teamtechpress.com/
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